[Mireille] Mireille
[Mireille] Mireille's name could roughly translate to miraculous aroma or wondrous aroma.
[Mireille] So she fits wine analogies.
[Mireille] And belladonna lily analogies.
[Mireille] And of course yuri translates to lily. :whistle:
[Noirlax] I do like Mireille's free spirit atm but Kirika's the ones who's got more feels atm
[JP Yuri] :whistle: indeed
[JP Yuri] Doesn't Kirika have a 'scent' name, too?
[Mireille] By the way, if you go by the more expansive definition of yuri - story focused primarily on relationships between women - Noir is by definition yuri.
[JP Yuri] HA!
[Mireille] The relationships don't have to be romantic in nature.
[JP Yuri] I thought so!
[JP Yuri] oh
[Noirlax] Yeah you can say Kirika is fragrant mist or fragrant incense
[JP Yuri] Never mind
[JP Yuri] Spoke too soon
[Mireille] fragrant meadow is the definition given in the ADV inserts iirc.
[Mireille] I mean it quite seriously.
[Noirlax] but that Kanji can mean incense and incense is related to death and ancestors
[forlornhope] Sorry I'm going to bed. I'm dead :sleepy:
[Noirlax] so it's a nice association
[Mireille] Night Brooke.
[forlornhope] Night all :dog:
[Noirlax] np Brooke thanks for joining the rewatch
[Mireille] Yes their names intertwine.
[Noirlax] bai bai :dog:
[Noirlax] ***
[MartAnimE] Bai Bai :dog:
[MartAnimE] ***
[MartAnimE] I'm back
[MartAnimE] nice parallel with the names
[JP Yuri] Aww, good night Brooke
[Mireille] What I man is Noir is primarily a story about a relationship between two women, ergo it can be called yuri.
[Mireille] Yuri can range from platonic to romantic.
[MartAnimE] I also like Kirika's name as being related to "fog" or "mist"
[MartAnimE] or am I remembering that wrong?
[JP Yuri] wb Marta
[Mireille] Noir isn't erotic yuri for example.
[MartAnimE] the scent/fragance of fog/mist
[Mireille] Sorry been reading so much of it lately, I've started learning the sub-genres
[Mireille] yeah one of the characters is fog or mist iirc.
[MartAnimE] I think any love can be platonic in a sense
[JP Yuri] So then I can't trust the 'yuri' label, because it might actually be gen
[JP Yuri] What can I trust when seeking out wlw fiction, then?
[Mireille] In Japanese usage yes.
[MartAnimE] I mean, assexuals are a thing, so you can have the love without the sex
[ShadowBlazer3000] think that's why some would rather split between shojo-ai and yuri
[Mireille] But I am pretty sure anything labeled as LGBT is going to be yuri in the erotic or romantic sense.
[Mireille] I mean labled on the amazon website as LGBT.
[Kugayama] and in a bad pun, how good is the English dub considered to be for Noir, ie what dub-genre is it? (-:
[Mireille] lol
[Noirlax] :smile:
[ShadowBlazer3000] your work is so garrish
[MartAnimE] lol
[Noirlax] It's considered You-Ri
[Mireille] I can't stand dubs personally. Watching dubed anime would be like seeing Der Rosenkavalier dubbed in English. :face_vomiting:
[MartAnimE] lol
[Noirlax] I think the dub is solid actually
[JP Yuri] I love dubs
[MartAnimE] I find it useful for rewatches
[Noirlax] but compared to the sub I think Kirika has a greater emotional range from the get-go
[JP Yuri] I'd rather my brain take a break and use subtitles as supplements
[Mireille] Well this is a case of to each his or her own.
[MartAnimE] I do like to check the Japanese version first
[ShadowBlazer3000] 9/10 i prefer them
[Mireille] I like the way japanese VA do the character voices.
[Mireille] English VA sound to American cartoonish to me.
[ShadowBlazer3000] right now I'm watching an anime where there's a character who talks obscenely fast
[Mireille] I would laugh to hear Monica Rial do Altena's lines though. XD
[Kugayama] some dubs can be good, but as I'm reading / typing while watching, dub is easier to follow
[MartAnimE] in Noir's case they do sound very grounded
[MartAnimE] more like real people than cartoons
[MartAnimE] I'd say
[Noirlax] Like I feel like America is a more emotionally expressive culture compared to Japan so they lowered the mute button for the dub :smile:
[Mireille] The Project A-Ko dubs had some funny lines.
[Noirlax] just a little
[Kugayama] interesting how the voice of the priest at the funeral was more British?
[ShadowBlazer3000] some of the extras are feigning accents
[Noirlax] yeah
[ShadowBlazer3000] how good they are, I don't know, I've never been to France, I don't speak French
[Kugayama] like who had British accents in Robin Hood Men in Tights and who just spoke American
[Noirlax] They do give you the atmosphere of Paris in ep 2 I think
[ShadowBlazer3000] but I do appreciate the effort when they're doing them at least well enough to sound correct and not over done
[Mireille] Here Sheila;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_(genre)[Mireille] First paragraph says what I was trying to say better.
[Mireille] in can encompase relationships that are emotional or spiritual.
[Mireille] And if nothing else emotional / spiritual fits MiriKiri to a T.
[MartAnimE] oh are we done with Noir?
[Mireille] I don't think so. I'm off on a bit of a tangent, but it's still related to Noir.
[MartAnimE] it's ok if we are, just let me know so I can close the logs
[Mireille] Up to everyone else.
[MartAnimE] I just stepped away to feed the cats :cat:
[Mireille] I'm liking the bluray a lot.
[ShadowBlazer3000] I think I kind of remembered a bit wrong, I recall the first episode had a little more camera movement in the fight with the mooks
[Mireille] And have a surround sound system now, so the soundtrack is rocking.
[ShadowBlazer3000] in a sense it was attempting to emulate being shot with a handheld or steady cam
[Kugayama] one last thought for anime set in Paris - was "Paris Syndrome" a thing when the anime was made?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome[ShadowBlazer3000] it's not as pronounced as I remember
[Mireille] Never heard those gunshots through subwoofers before.
[Kugayama] article mentions 2004
[Noirlax] I think the first episode had a bit more action
[Mireille] I don't think it was paris syndrome.
[Noirlax] Noir will certainly give Japanese people Paris syndrome imo
[Kugayama] is the blu-ray the Japanese release with English subs?
[Mireille] I think they wanted to set the Girls with Guns trilogy in a variety of settings outside Japan.
[ShadowBlazer3000] mine is the US Bluray so dub and subtitled editions
[Mireille] Some real, some fictional.
[Kugayama] ah, didn't realise that there was a US release as well
[Mireille] That's an interesting observation Alex.
[Noirlax] Noir was a relatively big ADV title so they had a US release
[Mireille] I never thought about it, but I think you are right.
[Mireille] It kind of adds to the intimacy of the series.
[Mireille] Noir often feels like looking through a emotional zoom lens at the characters.
[Mireille] The Japanese blu ray had no subtitles.
[Kugayama] ah right thanks
[Noirlax] Yes I love that @Mireille I don't feel like I'm watching two people as a third person
[Mireille] At least the collectors set didn't. I don't know about any subsequent releases.
[Noirlax] I feel more intimate and more like I'm in their head and inner feelings/thoughts
[Noirlax] and very few pieces of media do that for me
[Mireille] In sense there is almost a voyeuristic feel to it.
[Noirlax] I often feel detached from people as a person so this sort of more personal zoom is better
[Noirlax] Because "Even in a crowd I was always alone"
[Mireille] I don't mean in the leacherous sense, but more along the lines of observing something up close but not being a part of what is happening.
[Noirlax] feels so true for me personally but I don't like the use of the word voyeur here :smile:
[Kugayama] I should try to transcribe the Noir section of a talk that music professor John Marr did on the music of Yuki Kajiura
[ShadowBlazer3000] i think I saw that guy at a con
[Noirlax] yes I think we did
[Mireille] Kajiura is a storyteller disguised as a song writer.
[Kugayama] yes, he's dropped by canta-per-me.net forums a few times
[JP Yuri] Oh!
[MartAnimE] that was a cool panel, I recall
[Noirlax] really interesting
[ShadowBlazer3000] go for Kajiura get educated on music theory :thinking: :musical_note:
[Noirlax] lol
[MartAnimE] lol
[Mireille] Vouyeristic is sometimes used to describe stories where one is observing a relationship from the outside as opposed to inserting yourself into one of the characters.
[Mireille] Ok that just sounds nasty. XD
[ShadowBlazer3000] lol yes if you bend it that way
[Noirlax] lol
[Mireille] What I mean is oftentimes people will place themselves into the role of one of the main characters.
[MartAnimE] I try to avoid projecting myself into the characters actually, I feel like it can give me a biased perspective
[MartAnimE] as much as I might relate, I know I'm not the characters and they're not me
[Noirlax] I feel one cannot help but project yourself to the characters in some way
[Noirlax] the question is how much :smile:
[MartAnimE] and I prefer to enjoy media that way
[Mireille] I don't think Noir is meant to be seen that way.
[Mireille] For one thing it probably had a predominantly male audience, but the main characters are both female.
[MartAnimE] because I value being able to empathize with people outside yourself
[MartAnimE] or people you might not completely agree with
[Mireille] Some the males watching generally won't project themself onto one of the characters.
[Noirlax] If it's a little that's ok, helps with a point of reference.
[Mireille] They're meant to be observers.
[Noirlax] deep down I don't think I can do that Marta
[Kugayama] I felt that in Noir Kirika didn't know / had supressed her past and Mirelle knew hers but tried to be successful in some way in spite of her past
[Noirlax] anyway I'm going to lunch, bbl thanks for the rewatch.
[MartAnimE] okies enjoy lunch Riki!
[Kugayama] I might go for a :person_walking:
[Mireille] @Kugayama it's complicated.
[MartAnimE] Bai Bai :dog:
[MartAnimE] ***
[JP Yuri] Enjoy, Ricky
[Mireille] But it will become clear with time.
[MartAnimE] enjoy the walk Kuga
[MartAnimE] and thanks for joining us!
[MartAnimE] Bai Bai :dog:
[MartAnimE] ***
[Mireille] Madlax is the same with a female only cast, but I think it's easier to project yourself onto the characters in Madlax.
[Kugayama] thanks for letting me be part of it also, just happened to be available and ready to go
[MartAnimE] no prob, it was great! :smile:
[Mireille] Certainly Kari projects herself onto Elenore, but then Kari is female so it's more natural.
[Kugayama] the music tended to hit me pretty hard since I've heard it so often including live sometimes
[ShadowBlazer3000] yeah she sees herself in Elenore which is very sweet
[MartAnimE] yeah it is :elenore:
[ShadowBlazer3000] I've seen myself in Tsukasa :tsukasa:
[JP Yuri] Same
[Mireille] As long as you don't see yourself in Sora.
[MartAnimE] lol
[Mireille] I kind of identify with both Bear and BT.
[ShadowBlazer3000] lol maybe just a bit, I think I've seen bits of me in all characters in the franchise
[Mireille] I kind of feel like where I am in life is a bit like where they are.
[JP Yuri] Nuuu
[JP Yuri] No Sora!
[Mireille] Of course if I were BT my character name would just be B.
[Mireille] Or maybe PBB.
[MartAnimE] when it comes to Noir, I can relate to Kirika, Mireille, maybe even Chloe, but probably not Altena
[Mireille] Peanut Butter and Bacon sandwiches are awesome. XD
[JP Yuri] I can relate to :chloe: and :altena:
[Mireille] Because you've been the Chloe?
[JP Yuri] Yes
[MartAnimE] I think you might relate to Altena's cynicism, and I get that, but at heart I feel Altena is a manipulator
[Mireille] And you want to live in a manor with a vineyard and no people?
[JP Yuri] And :altena: because my faith in humanity is quickly approaching zero
[JP Yuri] I can no longer trust anyone to not be a trash person
[MartAnimE] and I could never bring myself to manipulate others like that
[Mireille] I would disagree there.
[JP Yuri] Present company and other friends excluded
[Mireille] Human progress is often typefied by upheaval, but we do make progress.
[Mireille] We just need to get rid of the politicians.
[JP Yuri] LOL all I'm missing are the grapes
[Mireille] Or in Altena's case sour grapes.
[MartAnimE] yeah I don't think humanity is trash either, as a whole there's probably more good people than bad
[JP Yuri] The bad ones are very vocal
[MartAnimE] we have to consider the US is not the entire world :smile:
[JP Yuri] And there are enough of them that they ruin things for other people
[Mireille] What's going on in parts of the US isn't good, but its still better than an awful lot of the world.
[MartAnimE] that's also true Mireille
[Mireille] Overall though, these are the sort of things that make the US move forward.
[Mireille] I mean the last few years have exposed some things we might have preferred to think are no longer here.
[Mireille] But exposing them means we now know we need to address them.
[MartAnimE] yeah I rather it all comes to the surface
[Mireille] France had something similar in those riots around Paris a few years back.
[MartAnimE] and makes people more aware about the problems that do exist
[Mireille] And England has Brexit.
[Mireille] I think we are now done with Noir.
[MartAnimE] alright, let me know so I can close the log
[Mireille] At least now that we know Altena is a metaphor for the state of the world.
[MartAnimE] lol
[MartAnimE] not a bad way to put it
[MartAnimE] thanks everyone for joining
[MartAnimE] and sharing your thoughts
[JP Yuri] You're welcome
[Mireille] Moving to Elda Taluta?
[MartAnimE] sure!
[Noirlax] Just going back to projection earlier, I don't think I'm Kirika or Mireille (they are too awesome to be me) but I don't believe there's such a thing as pure objectivity in media. Everyone comes from their own filters of experience often it's subconscious, you can be objective as possible but never purely objective. To me Noir is quite a personal/intimate series so if someone doesn't have something personal to relate to Noir, they are very unlikely to like it imo.
[Noirlax] Maybe I'm being harsh on not being able to empathize with ppl different from myself but often I feel detached from people even when I know and talked with them a long time. I don't feel part of them at all, like deep down they are still strangers. I feel that in media too if people are just talking face to face. So Noir's more introspective approach takes that away for me.
[JP Yuri] Oh
[Noirlax] Guess that Hemingway quote really resonates
[Noirlax] also thinking about memories do people ever find they can't attach emotions to memories or recall any happy memories even if good things happen to them?
[Noirlax] Thinking whether Mireille blocked all the happy memories as well as the bad ones too.
[JP Yuri] I don't know
[JP Yuri] I do know that Noir and Madlax (and maybe El Cazador, I forget) hinge on That One Memory
[JP Yuri] That seems to be a thing Mashimo likes
[Noirlax] maybe
[MartAnimE] I gotta say, I really like that Hemingway's quote in the context of noir, how it relates to Mireille and Kirika's solitude and vulnerability. But having read a sample of Hemingway's work in recent years, I'm more inclined to believe that quote, if he actually did say that, comes more from ego and a sense of superiority than a place of vulnerability and isolation. :sweat_smile:
[Noirlax] Oh
[Noirlax] those things aren't mutually exclusive though so it's still partially true :smile:
[MartAnimE] of course that doesn't make the quote any less meaningful, I just don't think the Hemingway association really adds to it
[MartAnimE] rather think of it as an observation Mireille has made herself
[MartAnimE] I dunno
[Noirlax] I think it's just there to give Mireille the impression of being educated
[Noirlax] ego and sense of superiority can be a defense mechanism to underlying vulnerability and isolation
[MartAnimE] yeah she likes to quote her literature
[MartAnimE] I guess you're right, I just don't think it's a good parallel to Kirika in particular
[Noirlax] that's more a Mireille thing
[Noirlax] :smile:
[MartAnimE] maybe resonates more with Mireille though
[Noirlax] Might be out of context but it works
[MartAnimE] as for me saying I try not to project, that doesn't mean I'm 100% objective either
[MartAnimE] just that I try not to make too many unfounded assumptions about the characters
[Noirlax] if you mean objective as possible yeah
[Noirlax] that works
[MartAnimE] for example, Kirika likes cats, that's unquestionably shown in the Myshkin episode, and I can relate to that. I could therefore make the assumption that maybe Kirika likes other animals too, like dogs. But I feel that'd be more of a projection on my end, because I love dogs and might enjoy the idea of a character I like loving the same things I do.
[Kugayama] sorry, what's the actual Hemingway quote?
[MartAnimE] "even when I was in a crowd I was always alone"
[MartAnimE] or something to that effect
[Kugayama] ah, thanks
[Noirlax] yeah that was what was said in Noir
[Noirlax] It's important not to make too many assumptions about characters, also important to put some personal attachment into the characters too.
[MartAnimE] yeah there's a fine balance
[MartAnimE] and if you go too far you might tread unto OOC territory
[Noirlax] Like DOON :smile:
[MartAnimE] lol yes :sweat_smile:
[Noirlax] XD
[MartAnimE] anyways, really going to bed now :sleeping:
[MartAnimE] thanks for the discussion :smile:
[MartAnimE] Bai Bai :dog:
[MartAnimE] ***
[Noirlax] Np thanks for the discussion
[Noirlax] bai bai :dog:
[Noirlax] ***
[Kugayama] I purchased my copy of the Noir DVD's on 5th May 2015, nearly 6 years ago
[Noirlax] nice and I'm glad you watched it with us
[MartAnimE] yeah hope you can keep joining us for this Kuga! :smile:
[Kugayama] Thursday Australia time is a free day for me
[MartAnimE] ~ THE END ~
