Author Topic: Hyouge Mono episode discussion  (Read 40373 times)

MartAnimE

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2013, 05:59:42 PM »
 Episode 26 and Episode 27 are out!

Forlorn Hope

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2013, 09:57:06 AM »

noirlax

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2013, 10:03:48 PM »
Spoiler:  ep.24 and 25 spoilers • show


The aesthete contest is now one big show but of course there is an agenda of Hideyoshi to replace Senno no Rikyu. Furuta of course wants to satisfy his ego but in his desire he goes too far. The true aesthetes don't really want a contest and at best feels this will be a superficial lesson. So the contest is not the point, but Hechikan's simplicity in serving with a less is more is a poignant point. They have no need to satisfy egos just 'to be'. He harbours too much on the opinion of his master and the masses. But in a way no one will tell him the weakness of his taste. He's trying too hard. Hechikan just wants to be and the materialistic and worldly titles is just a hindrance to his being. 

Furuta falls flat on his face when he's been called a novice by his master. It rips him to his core. The quote of the Atsumori is probably well known and famous for Japanese viewers. Makes you feel so insignificant in the world, better to laugh than cry I guess :p. But you can see Furuta's despair at his own insignificance despite all that is bestowed upon him. I feel the same way so it kinda hurts.

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Forlorn Hope

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2013, 08:09:15 PM »
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 08:23:40 PM by Forlorn Hope »

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« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:52:57 AM by Forlorn Hope »

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2013, 02:14:12 AM »

noirlax

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2013, 09:45:23 AM »
Spoiler: ep.26 and 27 • show

Yup this is the most mature anime I've ever watched and also the most mature piece of tv/film.

We see Hechikan destroying everything and indeed he feels his aesthetics dies with him. His warning to the younger Rikyu about his extremes also is stark. It also points out an aesthetic point that being too extreme or too much of one thing makes things rather unnatural and staged. Rikyu's agitation at his host hinted at this.

Meanwhile Furuta points out something about aging I feel is poignant. Being scolded and made to feel like a rookie at an older age doesn't feel good. It feels terrible, its like one spends ones life feeling unmastered. He runs away with comedy, other arts but it doesn't fulfill him.

However mastery is a honest personal assessment and even Rikyu himself admits to his lack of knowledge. He learnt something about aesthetics too, in a way his aesthetics should be fun which is more like Furuta. His words about too much of one thing epitomises something about aesthetics. This balance/peace between the beauty of transience and simplicity in one's heart against the power/amusement of extremities makes a great aesthete.

Lastly...

Life is the ultimate imperfection. I have a feeling some people will die to prove it.

"Even when...I was in a crowd, I was always alone." Mireille Bouquet

"A life that continues while your own will isn't reflected anywhere is nothing but pain." Gwen McNicol

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noirlax

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2013, 09:59:36 AM »
Spoiler: ep.28 and 29 spoilers • show
Even if not powerfully expressed at all times, there are many themes running through these episodes. The power to be one's self and to diverge from the treasures of the past for an aesthete is a powerful one that is at the very least mentioned. As Soji matures he criticises less and gains a self acceptance and confidence to create rather hiding under 'aesthetic criticism' and distancing away from people who he feels are diametrically opposed to himself. The warriors who accept him completely wins his heart. Also this dialeticalism of taste is a sort of nurturing and inspiration. Sadly for Soji his opinions gets him killed as Hideyoshi's forces crushes his benefactor. We see the sort of tyrant Hideyoshi is with his cold blooded advisor Ishida. Also unfortunately shown is this period of maturity and ability to create a legacy is so short. We see it in Soji, it breaks Rikyu's heart who is dismayed; but also Furuta's  comical attempts to leave a legacy of greatness. But in a way he does, when one matures, there's usually some young admirers and the young man when complimented is completely overwhelmed.
"Even when...I was in a crowd, I was always alone." Mireille Bouquet

"A life that continues while your own will isn't reflected anywhere is nothing but pain." Gwen McNicol

My Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/Noirlax

noirlax

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2013, 03:08:53 AM »
Spoiler: ep.30 -32 spoilers • show


Ep.30 and 31 seem more laid back. The lord Date is humourous and is sort of a philistine in the Japanese context. There's also a lot of history and characters that might escape my limited understanding of Japanese history. The creation of Edo (modern Tokyo) is important here. Again we see humour and flattery.

Episode 32 is more serious, we see the sacrifices people make for their authenticity and their beliefs or ambitions. We see the playboy lord wanting to retire and her cousin wanting to take some pain now before the feature falls to her. We are hinted at a battle of taste as well as personalities once again. However what seems to me more important is Furuta is left with a choice to be the warrior or the aesthete. One can only prolong this flux for so long. I'm not at that mid-life crisis type of age myself but that's what I see.  

"Even when...I was in a crowd, I was always alone." Mireille Bouquet

"A life that continues while your own will isn't reflected anywhere is nothing but pain." Gwen McNicol

My Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/Noirlax

noirlax

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2013, 09:41:58 PM »
Spoiler: ep.33 spoilers • show
I found this episode really touching in an artistic way. This is Sen no Rikyu coming with terms of his own mortality. A common artistic theme is the disciple must deviate from the master and this was beautifully captured. The way Mashimo is following Rikyu with small details is the animated drop. He does it wonderfully and uniquely in my opinion. The metaphor of the two paths is striking but thinking about it he's done it before in Noir or Phantom.

Some of the things in this episode reminds me of Nietzsche. Senno's love of aesthetics is in a way beyond good or evil he is so consumed by it it drives him to do amoral actions. But also in a "Thus Spoke Zarathustra' metaphor of the camel, lion and child for creation. In the artistic context Furuta must have the courage of a lion and the playfulness of a child to bring his work anew.

I kind of feel like Furuta or at least one of Rikyu's disciple upon the Rikyu of anime Mashimo. Who knows maybe he is talking to his disciples :D I feel like his age allows him to capture Rikyu's sentiments well.

 
"Even when...I was in a crowd, I was always alone." Mireille Bouquet

"A life that continues while your own will isn't reflected anywhere is nothing but pain." Gwen McNicol

My Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/Noirlax

noirlax

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2013, 03:01:21 PM »
Spoiler: ep.34-35 spoilers • show

In episode 34, the plot thickens. A lot of things in different directions. There is Rikyu's ambitions for imperfection and he is stunned on his daughter's plan. We see Rikyu questioning Furuta about his aesthetic intentions. After commending his work and technical excellence and giving his own interpretation. He asks what does your art want to say? what does it say about you? and in a way how do you want to show that. It's a serious question for Furuta for he feels he is only driven by ambition and fame. Another tangent is there is a sense of what strategists call 'soft power' with regards to aesthetics and Hidenanga is concerned Hideyoshi has loss the power of influence and has replaced it with only the power of coercion. Another thing of interest is the Korean emissaries and their attitude to the tea ceremony. Indeed the values of imperfection is pretty foreign even to China and Korea let alone the West.

Episode 35 indicates times are changing. Hidenaga as the brains behind Hideyoshi dies and this indicates the new era is coming. We also sense Rikyu is changing the old guard, his invitations to all the lords for his tea ceremony are there as well. Its interesting to see that each of the castle building warriors as aesthetes in their own right. This is a reflection of Japanese practice I think as their philosophy and aesthetics influences many aspects of their lives. We see the deeper questions of Furuta being further wedged with his rising popularity and fame but his sense of artistic soul searching.


"Even when...I was in a crowd, I was always alone." Mireille Bouquet

"A life that continues while your own will isn't reflected anywhere is nothing but pain." Gwen McNicol

My Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/Noirlax

noirlax

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2013, 08:10:27 AM »
Just me again with commentary.

Spoiler: ep.36-37 spoilers • show

Episode 36-37 got a little lost for me but I feel this is the build up to the finale. I will mix up the two episodes here a bit too.

Date's and Furuta's antics certainly caused a scene and made people question imperfection. What I did ask during the episode was why the fuss about art and imperfection? But I feel this might be what makes an aesthete, they are willing to live and die for it. Not just to play around the edges (like us postmodern people :D), but make seem like it is the all and end of all they live and strive for. Senno will not stand for his aesthetic convictions for creative freedom and also the philosophy of imperfection to be stamped upon and destroyed by the public and ultimately by the great warlord Hideyoshi who's 'mastery' of aesthetics is a political ambition.

However in courting Tokugawa he felt he has destroyed a natural aesthetic process of a simple man. Tokugawa's poem without the other lines is like the shock of a Zen koan to Senno no Rikyu. So powerful and simple is his taste, he felt all his scheming is no better than Hideyoshi himself. Combined with his conviction, sins for forcing imperfection through political plot and his feeling that he has stopped an aesthetic flowers blooming, Senno will want to go down greatly. He drops an art treasure to anger Hideyoshi just to do that.

 I read a book on tea aesthetics so I know what happens to Senno no Rikyu (I'm sure any Japanese person who studied some basic history will too. Actually after some study he probably is one of the greatest persons/myths in Japanese history from http://www.japanese-arts.net/teaceremony/teaceremony_index.htm so this must be well known) but I hope Mashimo will make it beautifully imperfect.

"Even when...I was in a crowd, I was always alone." Mireille Bouquet

"A life that continues while your own will isn't reflected anywhere is nothing but pain." Gwen McNicol

My Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/Noirlax

noirlax

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Re: Hyouge Mono episode discussion
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2013, 08:49:47 AM »
Spoiler: ep.38-39 • show

The second last episode sees the great Rikyu nearing death. But this is a death of his own choosing and making for the principles of imperfection. For him, being able to live to give to the next generation to expand will give him great satisfaction. This concept isn't new at all, I'm sure Nietzsche noted this feeling as well. We see people loyal to him fighting for him and others loyal to Hashiba for their own ends clash now. Seppuku it is for Rikyu, one of the most famous deaths in Japanese history.

That was a very powerful ending there, it probably is quite different from historical accounts of Rikyu's death. But instead of being historically accurate, there is a reason I believe for Mashimo to do it this way. He wanted to show something about Furuta and Rikyu and the transmission of one man and one generation to another. We can see who Furuta really is, a man caught between ambition and fear of poverty but also a love and veneration for his master and also a person not willing to sacrifice others like Tadaoki. The imperfection that was transmitted to Furuta is simple really don't forget the real you as he incites the laughter of his disciple after failing to get him to react after reminding him of his shallow ambitions. For me I feel every person has their own imperfection and it is important for this to be nurtured and cherished.

My final thoughts is somehow I feel the original manga must have blocked what Mashimo and Bee Train thought what they could do with the material. I wonder how much it differs from the original manga and how much they felt forced to stay true to it. This is certainly a difficult watch for a non Japanese person I reckon. However tea ceremony and this turbulent era of Japanese history must be well known for any local as this is probably as much taught as Americans are taught about the war of independence and Thanksgiving. I think the quote about being fictional is not to anger the descendants of the people portrayed in this anime who live on to this day.

In the end I always felt somehow this anime isn't about Sen no Rikyu as much as Koichi Mashimo speaking through Sen no Rikyu who himself is reaching a great age. Please don't commit seppuku on us yet Master Mashimo :D


As an epilogue to end this great series I like to link something

This is an interesting link about aesthetes and warriors:

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/martial-arts-fitness/martial-arts-nutrition/how-sen-no-rikyu-used-the-japanese-tea-ceremony-for-samurai-training/



And also

Spoiler: What really happened to the real Furuta Oribe • show

Unfortunately as part of the civil wars in Japan after Hideyoshi's death, Furuta had to commit Seppuku in 1615 at the age of 71.
"Even when...I was in a crowd, I was always alone." Mireille Bouquet

"A life that continues while your own will isn't reflected anywhere is nothing but pain." Gwen McNicol

My Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/Noirlax