Topic: And now, the ultimate question...

[Koveras]

Why has Madlax never achieved the same popularity as Noir?

[Ombrenuit]

Suddenly I understand why Animesuki moderates the creation of new threads with an iron fist ^^; But this is actually an interesting one. But it also doesn't strike me as completely surprising.

For one, it's a matter of uniqueness. Noir was simply different. It still is, and at the time, the anime market was just a bit lacking of thoughtful shows of the sort ^^; But also if you consider it, it was simply accessable. It was a show that had a violent premise, yet the violence was very stylized without blood and gore (a cliche in anime), and therefore, it was something that could reach a much wider audience to start out with. The characters were also the driving force of the show, and it truly is a rarity when you feel and connect with characters on such a deep level; any show that can achieve this will have a deep place in anyone's heart.

For why it appealed to Japanese and American audiences, I believe the reasoning should be separated, and I can't quite remark for the former. I do know that at the time, anime was just starting to reach a cult appeal in America, more than it had before. But there were very few shows to buy at the time (limited to a few shelves at Suncoast); Noir was very different, and appealed to a more intelligent and sensitive crowd. It instantly achieved cult status with a story of intrigue and naturally, assassins :p It was the kind of show you would think about during the day, the kind that gave you a new set of eyes to see the world; and best of all it was the kind of show you could talk about and keep returning to.

This doesn't even mention the incredible soundtrack, which I would argue was one of the first instances where a show had such an involving and emotionally up front composition, where in a way, the music played as an extra dimension of the show (only rivaled by Yoko Kanno of Cowboy Bebop fame at the time).

Since, however, the market has grown substantially. More thoughtful shows became more mainstream and widespread, and I'm certain it was a great influence as well. Madlax, in a way, got drowned out simply because it wasn't the only show filling that niche Noir once held. Also it may have appeared too stylish for some viewers who felt that it was a cheap imitation of Noir (and who spent the show running comparisons that weren't exactly warranted, and in a sense, ruining their enjoyment because comparison is almost always a lose-lose situation ^^; ). It just didn't seem to catch like Noir did. (I remember reading some blogs on it and most people didn't really want to give it a try simply because they didn't like the hyperbole of Madlax's character).

Also, because Anime is such a fan-boy/girl based culture, there were other animes at the time occupying their attention ^^; or they just didn't see what we saw in it (or simply saw it as Noir II when Noir I was good enough). Not everyone appreciates the same thing, and the fact that one show is more popular than another doesn't particularly bother me. I remember when I was talking to someone about how incredible and artistic I felt the Madlax soundtrack was. Well when I finally burned them a copy, they hardly thought it was extroidinary at all ^^; Oh well.

[Koveras]

So, you think that the two primary factors were the timing and the popular belief that "Madlax = Noir 2". I've thought of these, too, but that can't be all, can it?

[Ross]

I think the timing aspect Ombrenuit brings up is dead on and the primary reason.

I also think the supernatural aspect of Madlax had a hand in it's lack of popularity.  It wasn't a sci-fi, nor an out and out supernatural show like any vampire, monster, etc. show.  The supernatural part doesn't even come much into focus until the end.  I think some folks couldn't get past that. 

Noir requries it's own suspension of belief, quite a bit of it, but it still gave you relatively normal people, in a normal universe with normal emotions, etc.  Even though many of us will discuss the meaning of various things in Noir, you know what happened in the story.  In Madlax, many find themselves saying, "huh? what?" towards the end.  For those wanting a "Noir II" or something more "reality" type, Madlax ends up not being it. 

Noir had my attention right out of the box in the first episode.  After the first disc I couldn't wait for the second.  Madlax didn't really grab me unitl about midway through.  Many thought Noir to be too slow to begin with and dropped the series early on.  Madlax's pacing was even slower, so that population wasn't going to last long with it.

I think you end up caring for the characters in Noir faster and easier than Madlax.  The unique nature of the Madlax/Margret relationship doesn't lend itself to you really getting to know the main characters.  Frankly I found myself more concerned about Venessa and Elenore through most of the show. 

 

[MartAnimE]

I would say both Noir and Madlax seem to attract the same target audience, but if anything, Madlax should be more popular, for it is way more self-aware of itself as a show than Noir is. Noir irrefutably sticks to its quiet, slow paced, lack of excitement formalism and assumes itself as a "love it/hate it" anime. Madlax is just more flexible, it offers a more vast variety of experiences and its way more anime like with some things, and therefore supposedly more appealing to the general anime community. Of course I'm not saying it is fanserviced nor is the plot generic in any way, but in Madlax they manage to put up quite a show in a less subtle way than in Noir...

 However, and getting into the subject of this topic, Madlax never reached the cult status Noir did in a more general anime context (at least not yet ^^ )... Well, like it has been mentioned, the release factor played a big role in there of course. They could have never made Madlax before Noir, and Madlax obviously owns a lot to Noir! I seriously believe though, that people who had not watch Noir before they watched Madlax could never appreciate it in the same level as those who did. It's just a different experience (not to discredit those for whom this was the case of course ^^; ). And well, when I think about it, I find it very likely that, even if Madlax has some great non-Noir fans (those who never saw Noir), the people who can appreciate it the most are those who loved Noir in the first place! Cuz in a way, by trying to reach a wider audience (as I believe it was), Madlax loses a bit of that same sophisticated, intellectual, inaccessible feel that Noir had, which in my opinion, is what attracted all those more extremist obsessive fanatic fans who elevated it to cult status! ^^;

 My conclusion is, Madlax isn't anywhere close to generic and animeish enough to appeal to the more general anime public, but it shares a lot of the same charm that Noir fans love. So it's likely that, to the old Noir fans, Madlax actually reached a cult status! It's just that, well, you can't expect people to just stop loving Noir as they did before and start loving Madlax more, all of a sudden... ^^; (I personally even feel bad if you ask me to compare them and choose a better one really ! ) As for the non-Noir Madlax fans, maybe they're just not that many to raise the anime's popularity by itself, without any Noir background references...

[Matrim]

I think the main reason is that Noir was released earlier. Let's face it, most people who have seen both, see Madlax as a sort of a sequel (or even worse - a clone) to Noir and everyone knows that in most cases a sequel is never received as warmly by fans as the original. I know a guy who is a great fan of Noir but he is yet to watch Madlax because he has seen a bit of it and thinks it's probably little more than a Noir clone. Also, as mentioned, today one can choose between so many anime series that it's easy to miss some masterpieces, unless one devotes much time and effort to find all the quality stuff that is to his taste. Of course, most die-hard fans of Noir can't be expected to be so out of touch with the anime world to miss Madlax but they are also the ones who can be expected to bitch about how Madlax rips off Noir and discourage some casual viewers who have liked Noir a bit but don't want to bother with a rip off.

I think you end up caring for the characters in Noir faster and easier than Madlax.  The unique nature of the Madlax/Margret relationship doesn't lend itself to you really getting to know the main characters.  Frankly I found myself more concerned about Venessa and Elenore through most of the show.

Well, I care for some of the less important characters more than for the leads in more than half of the anime I am watch and I think a lot of people do so, maybe this is not such big of a problem. My problem was that Margaret was just annoying for most of the series, yet I still like "Madlax" a lot. I think this is because it's not so character driven as Noir, so even if you are not that fond of some character, you can stll enjoy it. If someone tells me he doesn't like Kirika and Mireile let's say by the time he gets to episode seven, frankly I will just tell him to stop watching because I think there would be a very slim chance he will enjoy the series much overall.

[Koveras]

Ross

If I may summarize your opinions...

- The timing aspect played the greatest role.
- A unique blurred genre prevented fans of major ones from appreciating the show.
- Unlike Noir, Madlax is slow and unfascinating at the beginning.

I also want to add that though both series have very good finales, Madlax's intensivity rises steadily all along, while Noir's does have slow-downs in the middle series.

I think you end up caring for the characters in Noir faster and easier than Madlax.  The unique nature of the Madlax/Margret relationship doesn't lend itself to you really getting to know the main characters.  Frankly I found myself more concerned about Venessa and Elenore through most of the show.

Vanessa is my favourite character, though I did care a lot about Madlax, too. %) Plus, I think, that unlike in Noir, in Madlax the relationship between the two female leads is much less an emotional rather than mystical thing. IIRC it never goes further than acknowledging each other's right to exist. %)

MartAnimE

Your points are, thusly, following:

- Noir is a polarized "love me or leave me" anime (much like Eva, I may add), while Madlax has had much more divegent reactions.
- Madlax is an offspring of Noir and always remains in its shadow (timing factor agian).

Did I miss something out?

At this point I must agree with Marta that I have loved Noir and I still do, by the way, but nowadays I do consider Madlax a greater work. Note that I don't used the word "better" since "better" refers to particular aspects, while greatness is an overall attribute.

Well, I care for some of the less important characters more than for the leads in more than half of the anime I am watch and I think a lot of people do so, maybe this is not such big of a problem.

Considering that there were only 4 recurring characters in Noir (compared to at least a dozen in most animes of such length), such attitudes are not suprising. %)

If someone tells me he doesn't like Kirika and Mireile let's say by the time he gets to episode seven, frankly I will just tell him to stop watching because I think there would be a very slim chance he will enjoy the series much overall.

You know, those are exactly my words in the anime guide I compile. %) Though I've also mentioned that if you become bored with the plot at any given moment, you should give up watching it right away.

[Ombrenuit]

Well, one could also argue from a first-impressional basis. Consider Noir's first episode vs. Madlax's. Noir's instantly developed a mystery and an intrigue, as well as a style, and the main dilemma of the story. It was stylish in a realistic degree. Madlax's on the other hand was far more stylish, but to a ridiculous degree (if that didn't appeal to you, it was instantly alienating ^^; ).

The episode surrounded the Gazth-Sonika war (which was reminiscent of Vietnam) and essentially Madlax's character (and coolness). However, once one has either a good or moderate first impression, and decides to continue, their criticism of the second episode is going to be ever further pronounced simply because it's either "Are they going to continue with what I like or with the side of it I don't?"

It starts to set a precedent, and while Noir continued with the Assassin intrigue in the second episode, Madlax shifted gears entirely. As the first episode was "Mad" the next was re-"lax"ed, dealing with Margaret. As MartAnime said, Madlax deals with a wider variety of experiences while Noir tends to focus more, especially at the beginning. I feel it is much more difficult to introduce someone to Madlax than to Noir (especially if they are skeptical of anime in general ^^; ) because Madlax is essentially prelude until at least the third DVD when the core of the story begins to develop.

As for me, I saw Madlax before Noir, and for me, the first episode hooked me completely. I was fascinated with Madlax and the style was just something that caught my imagination unlike anything I had seen before. When the story started to get as deep as it did, that was simply a welcome bonus for me, and what eventually solidified my loyalty to the series because I simply had no expectation of that occuring. But I do admit, at the beginning I was more excited to see Madlax episodes than Margaret episodes.

But I also agree with MartAnime that the nature of Noir leant itself to more fanatical fans (as one would have to be fairly fanatical to truly get into it, which would , while Madlax was a bit looser. I wasn't fanatical about it until I started to explore the soundtracks so intentely (which is what started to clue me into its depth).

[Matrim]

As for me, I saw Madlax before Noir, and for me, the first episode hooked me completely. I was fascinated with Madlax and the style was just something that caught my imagination unlike anything I had seen before.

Well, I watched Noir first but the first episode of Madlax was jaw-dropping. I love to death that action scene in the end of it, as unrealistic and over the top as it is.

I feel it is much more difficult to introduce someone to Madlax than to Noir (especially if they are skeptical of anime in general ^^; ) because Madlax is essentially prelude until at least the third DVD when the core of the story begins to develop

True, it's hard to introduce people to it but I managed to convince one of my friends to watch it by striking a deal - in exchange I was supposed to watch some favourite anime of hers. She ended up liking the second half of the series quite a lot. Funnily enough, I have tried to convince people to watch Noir a number of times but none of them has gotten past the first few episodes. Bastards with no taste... Maybe the reason is that as mentioned Noir is very much a "love it or hate" type of show, which is true for Madlax, too but not to such a great extent.

But I do admit, at the beginning I was more excited to see Madlax episodes than Margaret episodes.

OK, I am biased because I don't liek Margaret but I would venture that most viewers share your sentiments.

Though I've also mentioned that if you become bored with the plot at any given moment, you should give up watching it right away.

I am not so sure about that, some of the "stand alone" or mission of the week episodes did not have too interesting stories but were crucial for character development. So not being interested in the characters seems like a more obvioun hint one should not bother watching any more of it to me.

[MartAnimE]

But I do admit, at the beginning I was more excited to see Madlax episodes than Margaret episodes.

OK, I am biased because I don't liek Margaret but I would venture that most viewers share your sentiments.

 Well it's the other way around for me... I have nothing against Madlax herself, she's cool and stylish and kicks ass allright, but after watching the first episode, as impressed as I was by the thrilling killing scene with "Nowhere" playing in the background, I was like "ok this was pretty cool, but wasn't there supposed to be another girl in this series? like, where is the Kirika like character that we see in the opening? ".

 I was glad Margaret showed up right at the second episode, cuz if the anime were to focus on Madlax character mostly (instead of 50-50), I'd definitely still follow it but wouldn't enjoy it as much. The problem with Madlax, at least for me, is that, well, she's a "sexy blond type", with a tendency to change into rather revealing dresses for such special occasions as gunfights in the middle of the jungle! ^^; The fanservice suggestion is there, whether the anime fully assumes it or not...

 Anyway, I don't dislike Madlax at all, but I don't understand why would someone dislike Margaret? I mean she's small, cute, orphaned and amnesiac; and she acts funny in this almost autistic sort of way that's just so interesting to watch! She just looks so overly helpless and vulnerable that it feels almost cruel not to care for her! ^^;

[Matrim]

and she acts funny in this almost autistic sort of way

That's why. There is a limit on the times a characters can stare blankly into the distance and utter something totally irrelevant after a few seconds long pause and when it's reached the said character starts to get on my nerves. In the case of Margaret the limit was reached probably as early as the fourth episode.

She just looks so overly helpless and vulnerable that it feels almost cruel not to care for her!

Well, after watching too much anime in not that big of a time period like me, you get tired of helpless girls taking the role of the damsel in distress and appealing to the proverbial knight in a shining armour in you. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike all the helpless "moe" characters but it's just harder for me to like them compared to other characters who don't rely on anyone to save them every few episodes or take care of them in general.

[Koveras]

Maybe the reason is that as mentioned Noir is very much a "love it or hate" type of show, which is true for Madlax, too but not to such a great extent.

I'll have to disagree with you on that issue. If we compare reactions of those who have seen both series completely, we'll see that unlike Noir, Madlax nearly always leaves a good impression upon the completion. However, while "good impression" of Noir sounds somewhat like "Whoa, that's, like, the coolest anime I've ever watched, I wanna rewatch it and then get some more!", with Madlax it's usually more like "Wow, that's a cool anime. Is there some more of that? Not yet? Ah, whatever... What's next on the list?"

In exchange, in roughly a half of the cases, Noir is remembered like "Oh, that one? I've slept right through most of the episodes and hated the stupid ending." Madlax, on the other hand is mostly reviewed negatively by those who haven't got past the first 8 eps.

My assumptions are based upon observations of my younger brother, whom I managed to convince to watch every Bee Train work we have in the house despite his often-proclaimed programme to start an Anti-BT League, and myself.

OK, I am biased because I don't liek Margaret but I would venture that most viewers share your sentiments.

I can only say for myself, but for me, gradual caring less and less about Margaret started after I understood that she is NOT Kirika v2.0. Though, my opinion of her rised enormously after that final dialogue with Madlax and Laetitia. The second time I've watched it, I totally cried like a wee lad. %)

I am not so sure about that, some of the "stand alone" or mission of the week episodes did not have too interesting stories but were crucial for character development. So not being interested in the characters seems like a more obvioun hint one should not bother watching any more of it to me.

That advice was, again, based on the observations I've made up to that point in time. Back then, I didn't set the plot and the characters much apart. %)

The fanservice suggestion is there, whether the anime fully assumes it or not...

You sure are persistent in reminding us of fanservice in the series. %)

Anyway, I don't dislike Madlax at all, but I don't understand why would someone dislike Margaret? I mean she's small, cute, orphaned and amnesiac; and she acts funny in this almost autistic sort of way that's just so interesting to watch! She just looks so overly helpless and vulnerable that it feels almost cruel not to care for her! ^^;

Yes, she is cute and autistic, but in my view, she is also "empty". Meaning that she hasn't got anything burning from inside (which is also supported by the plot, wink-wink), only the Gift which is not a personality trait, either. Her amnesia does not torment her a little bit, she just wants to find out about her past - out of pure academic interest, as it seemed to me at some point! This makes her different from Kirika, who was actively suffering all along from her loss of memory.

But Madlax is a entirely different story. Much like Kirika, she woke up one day with a gun in her hands and no memories and had to make a living with it. She is has a stronger will and is generally more detatched than Kirika, which makes her experience less angst, but still suffer nevertheless. Only that her torment is much subtler that Kirika's. Where the latter usually cries a river, Madlax just gets that special expression in her eyes. Plus, the main theme in the series is IMHO that the ability to pull the trigger is inseparatable from the idealistic kindness towards everyone around.

There is a limit on the times a characters can stare blankly into the distance and utter something totally irrelevant after a few seconds long pause and when it's reached the said character starts to get on my nerves. In the case of Margaret the limit was reached probably as early as the fourth episode.

Well, those limits are easily stretched... I mean, Rei Ayanami stares into the distance all way long in Eva and still enjoys attention of the hugest single anime character fandom in the known universe. %)

[Matrim]

I'll have to disagree with you on that issue. Smiley If we compare reactions of those who have seen both series completely, we'll see that unlike Noir, Madlax nearly always leaves a good impression upon the completion. However, while "good impression" of Noir sounds somewhat like "Whoa, that's, like, the coolest anime I've ever watched, I wanna rewatch it and then get some more!", with Madlax it's usually more like "Wow, that's a cool anime. Is there some more of that? Not yet? Ah, whatever... What's next on the list?"

How is that a disagreement? It is basically what I meant, only expressed in more words. I think the love it or hate it part of Madlax is shared by pretty much any Bee Train anime, they are all very atmospheric and somewhat slow, some people just hate such a type of anime. And if one sleeps though most of Noir, that can be easily put into the "I hated it" category. It goes something like this for "Noir" - one either loves the characters and as a result the series or hates both. In the case of Madlax it's easier to dislike some characters and like the show.

What I call the love it or hate syndrom usually kicks in fairly early in the course of series,  so even if you one likes Madlax overall but has barely gotten past the first eight or so episodes that more often than not probably means he liked the show but not loved it. OK, I will stop because it seems to me we are talking about basically the same thing, yet  somehow disagree...

I mean, Rei Ayanami stares into the distance all way long in Eva and still enjoys attention of the hugest single anime character fandom in the known universe

Sounds like my choice not to watch Eva is a good one then, never mind my dislike of mechas. And anime fans in general like moe way too much but let's not get into that.

[MartAnimE]

You sure are persistent in reminding us of fanservice in the series. %)

 No, I'm not. It would be insultive to claim that Madlax (or any other Bee-Train series for that matter) is a fanservice anime! I just pointed out that Madlax gets just a bit closer to fanservice than Noir.

[grrlgamer4ever]

I think part of it may be that people were expecting Madlax to be more similar to NOIR, but at the same time wanted it to be different as well. So there was conflict there. Madlax couldn't be what everyone wanted it to be. NOIR was sort of the first anime of its kind, while Madlax came later and there were other animes similar to it, and so comparisons were more easily made. And of course, when you compare stuff, it doesn't always come up favorably.

Personally, I discovered and watched both animes at the same time, so while I knew that Madlax might have similar themes to NOIR because they were done by the same company, it was easier for me to enjoy it on its own merits. I love both of them, and while I would say NOIR is my favorite, that's more because I really like the Mireille/Kirika implications than because of the story itself. I actually think Madlax has a more interesting story. Margaret has to be one of the most complex characters ever. And I think Madlax also had the better soundtrack, as well.