Author Topic: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)  (Read 11554 times)

Koveras

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It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« on: October 21, 2007, 06:18:14 AM »
Well, it's time to reminisce upon the EC on the whole as well as the GWG trilogy in general, now that both are over. :)

I think I'll begin the discussion with a analogy: if anime were chess, Mashimo would be a master of endgame. He may have lots of trouble with the opening, as evident in Madlax and, more prominently, Cazzy, and middlegame (see Noir and Cazzy, again) but his endings are inevitably flawless. IMO. From now on, just as Kaijura's involvement means "at least, we'll get some decent music", Mashimo's will mean "at least, we'll get a decent ending" for me. :)

Also, Cazzy suspiciously reminded me of Simoun on more that one occasion. First, there is the matter with savage genius OP. Secondly, Ellis looks (and never acts) like Aaeru at times. Thirdly, we got a very similar distant finale.

It's weird but I have this eerie dissonance in my perception of Cazzy right now. On one hand, the Reveal in the episode 25 was nowhere as dramatic as in Madlax and nothing really breathtaking happened (the resurrection matter aside). On the other, this ending just FEELS RIGHT. From a purely subjective attitude. Noir had the heroines walking away into the night, Madlax had them driving into the sunrise, and El Cazador lets them drive in broad daylight.

I must admit, I'm a sucker for such endings. They are the fairest IMO. No person would remain normal after what Mashimo puts them through, so a plain happy end is not an option. A Tomino-class kill-them-all ending is not appropriate for any anime (unless it's a Tomino-class anyone-can-die series), that's why I hated the last two *cough* shots *cough* or Noir. Thus, the best way is how Mashimo does it: without ruling out any negative possibilities but making us believe that everything will be fine. And we want to believe.

Well, that's my opinion, in any case. :)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 06:50:27 AM by Koveras »

MartAnimE

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2007, 11:26:46 AM »
Noir had the heroines walking away into the night, Madlax had them driving into the sunrise, and El Cazador lets them drive in broad daylight.

 Except, in Madlax, Limelda wasn't an heroine, but clearly an antagonist, for the most part...

that's why I hated the last two *cough* shots *cough* or Noir.

Spoiler: Noir • show
Well, the final shots, as a lot of other stuff in the GwG trilogy, are supposed to be ambiguous (MiaHT right?). I never considered the two shots in Noir as a suggestion that it might have been a not so happy ending though. Only read about it later, some fans' speculation that they might have been offed by the Soldats or commited suicide on the spot. But that theory never made much sense to me. Some fans who claim to be able to recognize the sound from Kirika and Mireille's guns distinctively, have stated that those were the gun shots heard at the end, while the broken pocketwatch is shown. So they could have never been real shots if that was the case! Kirika's gun fell into the lava pit, and Mireille supposedly dropped her somewhere around the lava pit site when she went to pull Kirika out. They didn't had their guns at the end as they're walking away. Even if the fans were wrong, and the gun shots are not from Kirika and Mireille's guns, I still find it improbable that the Soldats would off them like that on the spot. It just doesn't feel right...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 09:28:44 AM by MartAnimE »

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2007, 01:51:57 PM »
Quote
No person would remain normal after what Mashimo puts them through, so a plain happy end is not an option.

Er, how exactly is EC's ending not a good ol' happy end, may I ask?

Anyway, for me El Cazador is one big wink at the fans of the previous two series. All the guest seiyuus, similar characters, similar situations unfolding in a different way, lack of any real tension for the most part, etc. Nothing wrong with that per se but he could (or should, if you ask me) have either:

 A) Made a shorter series which would be like Noir Fumoffu type of comedy

or

 B) Made a real third GWG series with actual plot that is not one big joke

As for Noir:

Spoiler: show
No way in hell Mashimo (or any director with half a clue) would kill the two main characters off screen.
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zlodei

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2007, 06:02:05 PM »
WHY COULDN'T IT END AT 15 MINUTES IN EP 25??!! So... LAME! All that nice emotion just to be farcically ruined 2 seconds later when Lirio suddeny out of nowhere decides to speak for the first time in her life and Jodie suddenly out of nowhere gets some power. No explanation at all just needed a quick fix way of bringing them back to life!

All in all, pretty disappointing series, kept waiting for some kind of explanation or depth but it never came. Who was Nadie? Who was Ricardo, Lirio, etc. A big divergence from the other GWG series which are strongly centered around the past, not that that's a bad thing in itself but it just wasn't done very well.

It did have its moments though, a lot of superbly cool scenes and some great music.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 06:12:49 PM by zlodei »

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2007, 07:00:03 PM »
Well, what comes to mind after finishing the final episode is that El Cazador de la Bruja is a show with two fantastic main characters and a great OST that deserved a better series than the one they were in. And by better I don't even necessarily mean darker or more serious. There were plenty of times when El Cazador worked quite well but there were also plenty of times were it was uneven or fell short, not least of all critical episode #25. Several episodes were even duds, which for me is a stark contrast to the other GWG shows (I loved all the episodes of Noir and Madlax.)

The bond and relationship between Nadie and Ellis is probably my favorite of any Bee Train series, GWG or otherwise, and perhaps of any anime. It's the strongest part of the show, as it should be, but I didn't feel like the quality of the series matched it.

Quote
when Lirio suddeny out of nowhere decides to speak for the first time in her life and Jodie suddenly out of nowhere gets some power. No explanation at all just needed a quick fix way of bringing them back to life!

I wasnt happy about killing characters and ressurecting them (Lame!) but Lirio's speaking, powers, and Jodie's powers were not out of nowhere. It's already been established Lirio and Jodie are of witch lineage. A full fledged witch was speaking and acting through Lirio, and with her help Jodie was able to use her powers it seemed (how much of a role the Inca Rose necklace of hers played I'm not sure, crapppy writing left a few too many loose threads.)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 07:03:58 PM by Teufel »
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MartAnimE

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2007, 11:18:03 PM »
 Well, as much as I would have prefered the third chapter in the GwG trilogy to have been something more along the lines of Noir and Madlax aswell, I can't really say that El Cazador was that bad for what it was. The ending didn't really disappoint me (neither did it surprised me for that matter), it was just exactly how it was supposed to be in my opinion. I was expecting something different indeed, but at the beginning of the series! After all those episodes, once you realize what the show is actually all about, and if you have no issues accepting it for what it is, it makes it difficult to feel disappointed by the end, cuz the show didn't really hint at anything much greater, I think.

 So, yeah, the ending might have had a lot of generally considered lame elements to it: the resurrection of dead characters; the silly happy feel good ending; the lack of exposition on some secondary characters; the lack of insight into Nadie's past... but I think while these sort of things would have been really lame in a show like Noir or Madlax, in El Cazador they don't seem half as problematic, but actually acceptable and expected even! It's not like this show had any pretensions on living up to its GwG predecessors' standarts, I think... The show just doesn't take itself very seriously, so why should we? ^^;

Alesiopdv

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 01:36:55 AM »
I remember that thing I said about the theme of the trilogy being forgive and I still think Im right. Since the first episode Ellis was lost, she was the perfect example of a person who feels something in her life is missing and if Nadie had never crossed ways with her she would never have start moving and go and search for what was bothering her, the whole point of the trip was for Ellis to discover herself and find what makes her happy and Nadie was just a travel companion.
So in the end Ellis was all happy, she now knows who she is and what she wants *cough* Nadie *cough* so her part of the history have ended.
Then what about Nadie? I think she was lost too. Even when they never quite tell why Nadie was a runaway (to be fair we never also knew why the hell was Kirika in Japan and what caused her amnesia and never knew how Madlax met SSS or even get to Gathz-Soniska) but is not really important. She was always travelling becuase she feels that Need of being in motion and can never stop. The problem was Ellis, Nadie took the job for the chance of change, she too was looking for something missing in her life, turns out her missing thing was the journey in itself when the adventure ended she now was boring and feeling empty again, the only thing different from before is that now she has somebody who travels with her, someone for who she trully cares, and was afraid of hurting her if she forced her to travel along, of course Ellis want to travel with her and so lets go in our happy lesbian-walking-to-the-horizon-ending!!

Jokes aside, the romance theme in the series just happens to be between two womens, probably because somekind of fetish of the production team, but if you change the gender of one of the girls to male the story works the same way.

Okey this series are not perfect, I differ with Teufel, some episodes of both Noir and Madlax are booooriingg, most thing are left to the viewer interpretation and could never be a canon (what the hell was a True Noir anyway? What the hell where the Tree Books and where they come form??) and youi can count other faults...

but when you are a fan none of this matters so..

OBA! OBA!

I think of this trilogy like Star Wars with Avenger being a kind of 4th chapther, Mashimo is probably tired of doing this kind of series but he himself say he made El Cazador more because he loved the story that for the need of completing the trilogy so maybe in the future some cool story comes across him and then we will have tree more chapters (two from my point of view)

Quote
Noir had the heroines walking away into the night, Madlax had them driving into the sunrise, and El Cazador lets them drive in broad daylight.

True! And this is just ONE of the simbolism and the spiritual conexion between the four (or three) chapters, we should made a different tread for looking simbolism.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 01:40:59 AM by Alesiopdv »
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MartAnimE

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 03:52:25 AM »
 Alesiopdv! Interesting point you're calling El Cazador a 4th chapter! Could you elaborate on the thought? It reminds me a lot of that short interview on Madlax DVD 7 booklet, where Mashimo claims he did in fact complete his "trilogy" with Madlax, since Madlax was actually two stories in one! Was that what you're refering to?

Koveras

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 05:25:59 AM »
Except, in Madlax, Limelda wasn't an heroine, but clearly an antagonist, for the most part...

She WAS listed as one of the main characters, though. :P

Quote
No person would remain normal after what Mashimo puts them through, so a plain happy end is not an option.

Er, how exactly is EC's ending not a good ol' happy end, may I ask?

Anyway, for me El Cazador is one big wink at the fans of the previous two series. All the guest seiyuus, similar characters, similar situations unfolding in a different way, lack of any real tension for the most part, etc. Nothing wrong with that per se but he could (or should, if you ask me) have either:

 A) Made a shorter series which would be like Noir Fumoffu type of comedy

or

 B) Made a real third GWG series with actual plot that is not one big joke

I shall not argue with you. It's not fun. Period. :)

No explanation at all just needed a quick fix way of bringing them back to life!

I saw that as another MiaHT moment: Mireille was supposed to kill Kirika, Margaret was supposed to undo Madlax but neither has happened. So in Cazzy, Mashimo went, like, "here you go, both heroines are dead... ah, who am I kidding?" Sort of thing he'd do. %)

I remember that thing I said about the theme of the trilogy being forgive and I still think Im right. Since the first episode Ellis was lost, she was the perfect example of a person who feels something in her life is missing and if Nadie had never crossed ways with her she would never have start moving and go and search for what was bothering her, the whole point of the trip was for Ellis to discover herself and find what makes her happy and Nadie was just a travel companion.
So in the end Ellis was all happy, she now knows who she is and what she wants *cough* Nadie *cough* so her part of the history have ended.
Then what about Nadie? I think she was lost too. Even when they never quite tell why Nadie was a runaway (to be fair we never also knew why the hell was Kirika in Japan and what caused her amnesia and never knew how Madlax met SSS or even get to Gathz-Soniska) but is not really important. She was always travelling becuase she feels that Need of being in motion and can never stop. The problem was Ellis, Nadie took the job for the chance of change, she too was looking for something missing in her life, turns out her missing thing was the journey in itself when the adventure ended she now was boring and feeling empty again, the only thing different from before is that now she has somebody who travels with her, someone for who she trully cares, and was afraid of hurting her if she forced her to travel along, of course Ellis want to travel with her and so lets go in our happy lesbian-walking-to-the-horizon-ending!!

Jokes aside, the romance theme in the series just happens to be between two womens, probably because somekind of fetish of the production team, but if you change the gender of one of the girls to male the story works the same way.

Okey this series are not perfect, I differ with Teufel, some episodes of both Noir and Madlax are booooriingg, most thing are left to the viewer interpretation and could never be a canon (what the hell was a True Noir anyway? What the hell where the Tree Books and where they come form??) and youi can count other faults...

Wow, that's a cool theory, seriously. Fellini's gonna have a hard time. %)

Quote
Mashimo is probably tired of doing this kind of series but he himself say he made El Cazador more because he loved the story that for the need of completing the trilogy so maybe in the future some cool story comes across him and then we will have tree more chapters (two from my point of view)

You know, a similar thought crossed my mind yesterday: Mashimo got carried away and said that he was gonna make a GWG trilogy after Noir. So, for 6 years he was restricted to this particular topic and, frankly, he ran a bit short on ideas after Madlax. That's why Cazzy is not as brainy as its predecessors. My point being, now that Mashimo is free from fan pressure, we can expect him to come up with something truly original again. :)

Quote
True! And this is just ONE of the simbolism and the spiritual conexion between the four (or three) chapters, we should made a different tread for looking simbolism.

Yet another good idea. :) You should have the honour of opening that thread. ;)

Alesiopdv! Interesting point you're calling El Cazador a 4th chapter! Could you elaborate on the thought?

I think he meant that Avenger is the 4th chapter. :)

Quote
It reminds me a lot of that short interview on Madlax DVD 7 booklet, where Mashimo claims he did in fact complete his "trilogy" with Madlax, since Madlax was actually two stories in one!

Let me just point out that that interpretation of Mashimo's words is just as well a subject to criticism as any other. ^^;

MartAnimE

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 07:45:07 AM »
She WAS listed as one of the main characters, though. :P

 I thought Madlax and Margaret were the main characters (heroines) and all the other
 were secondary characters or antagonists. Just like Kirika and Mireille are the heroines in Noir and Ellis and Nadie are the heroines in El Cazador.

I think he meant that Avenger is the 4th chapter. :)

 Ah right! I read his post in a rush and too early in the morning and got it wrong! Silly me... ^^;

Koveras

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2007, 09:21:03 AM »
I thought Madlax and Margaret were the main characters (heroines) and all the other were secondary characters or antagonists. Just like Kirika and Mireille are the heroines in Noir and Ellis and Nadie are the heroines in El Cazador.

Well, duh, that's MiaHT for us. ^^;

MartAnimE

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2007, 09:40:47 AM »
Well, duh, that's MiaHT for us. ^^;

 Meh, not really... ^^; But whatever, I was just pointing out the exception to the rule in the GwG trilogy, regarding the endings. It's a fun hobby! :P

 BTW, Alesiopdv, just remembered it a while ago, Avenger couldn't ever be part of the Bee Train GwG Project for the simple fact that it isn't a girls-with-guns anime! Remember guns are considered "non-regulation weapons" in Avenger! ^^;

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2007, 10:55:05 AM »
Should we rename the genre to girls-with-angst to include Avenger, too? ;)

zlodei

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2007, 08:55:39 PM »
The most disappointing thing is that the potential was there for something on the same level as its predecessors. Think of all the unanswered and inconsistent things about the series and then imagine what could have been if, instead of loads of pointless filler episodes, they had dedicated these episodes to developing these questions. It's not like it would have necessarily had to compromise the shows 'feel good' atmosphere, and it would have made it so much deeper and more coherent... I think maybe they were just lazy, because it would take some skillful writing to make it work, but I think Mashimo is capable...

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Re: It is finished (and let slip the spoilers of the plot)
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2007, 10:29:56 PM »
I certainly have mixed feelings about the end. Everything in 25 seemed so rushed and/or contrived. I felt a certain disconnect and/or surrealism(?) to the story (maybe it's because it had been too long since I last watched the series). The coven thing especially came out of nowhere. I mean, they're going to leave Ellis and them alone just like that? And by the way, how exactly did Nadie die? Also, I loved the music "El Cazador" at the end, but really, Rosenburg fell too easily.

There were a few things left unresolved, too. For example: what in the world are those tricera-ninja-sockheads doing in the series? How is Lilio relate to Ricardo, if at all, and what happened to his previous family that he regrets? What is that present Ellis gave Schneider? What happened to those children (or rather, how did they die)? I'd ask about Lilio, but I read that she was channeling a witch. And I'm especially disappointed that I saw Dark Ellis, for like, 5 seconds in the entire series. I want my money back!  >:(

Like I said, I loved the music (in both episodes) and it was nice to see Jodie finally use her powers, and see her live. Also, OMG Noir references! (lava chamber and 'kill me"). And I think I was close to crying when Nadie shot Ellis.
 
I think Episode 25 could've benefited from being drawn out into 2 episodes.

Episode 26 was nice, a good epilogue, though I was lost for half the episode, wonering how Nadie and Ellis got there, or if it was a dream, or what. Amigo Tacos and Jodie were nice bonuses. Also, re: Nadie/Ellis: if that's not maintext, I don't know what is, other than hentai.

26 should've been an episode 27, to accommodate for the two-part episode 25.

It would've been awesome if they'd skipped Romanesque and instead rolled the credits during the songs in both episodes, a la Fullmetal Alchemist.

Despite my disappointment in episode 25, I felt empty as El Cazador ended, because it was ending. It didn't help that that Bindiger song sounded eerily like the Chrono Trigger ending. :'(

Now I feel like (though really there's more to watch) I watched everything Bee Train.

Edit: Oh, I forgot about the lack of retaliation for Jodie betraying the Coven and Rosenburg being on to Jodie being on to him.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 11:19:34 PM by Bulmafox »
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