Topic: Is Kirika and Mireille's relationship a shoujo-ai thing?

[ノワ&]

i think that the relationship between them is like the relationship of very close friends their bond is not romantic in anyway...but just like that of close friends or sisters!

[Fellini 8.5]

I had to think for a while about this one, and I really just had to come down on the "don't know" side.  Just like me not to commit...  :wink:

My very first impression catching random episodes on TV was that this show was, as they say in the vernacular, "hawt".  There was a definite tension/vibe that went beyond just conflict or competition, though there wasn't any truly literal clue.  It may have just been me being too much of a typical male mysoginist.  :roll:

This was still before I got swept away by it, and I was still trying to absorb just what it was that I stumbled in to.  Lusting before falling in love, I suppose.  :oops:

But over the course of many marathons since then, I tried to figure out what my feelings were about the whole relationship, and frankly, I really don't know.  I'm a bit too curmudgeonly to readily admit to any romantic empathy, yet the Two Rails, the Letter, the Standoff in the cemetary, and the whole freakin' End; they simultaneously break and warm my heart.  I want them to be happy, I want them to be together, and it hurts when they're forced apart.

I've had theories that Kirika has a crush on Mireille from the start, my biggest clue being from one of the first episodes I saw -- the beach in Uglia.  Mireille says "it's so beautiful", Kirika is looking at her, then quickly, deliberately, catching-herself-thinking-something-she-probably-shouldn't, looks away.  The one little tiny eye movement, the timing around how long she looked, versus how quickly she stopped, well, I recognized it.  There's a lot of unspoken moments like that, unspoken, but recognizably meaningful.  

Others might see them and think they're looking at a static cel with a camera panning across it and filling time for the music to end, of course.

But really, I'm dodging the question here.  On subsequent viewings, it seemed like the reactions I was projecting on those scenes meant different things, as if my own "crush" were being supplanted by a more "protective" feeling -- the whole "sisters" thing.  They were my little sisters.  And their bond took on a different aspect that reflected that, I think.

Yet, there's the Letter...

In more recent viewings, I get the sense that I'm swinging back, or maybe moderating somewhere in the middle.  But I really don't have a clear vision of it.

Thus, "I don't know".

Oh, and FallenAngel, your post about Milosh was very insightful, and I think I agree that there's definitely some purposeful "reflection" themes to be found as you've described.  There's a lot of that throughout the episodes, and while they may not have planned specifically ahead of time to get a lot of those details that way, I'm certain that while they were in the thick of it, there were conscious decisions to portray them in that manner when it was time to make those choices.  But overall, it'll make me watch the episode in a new light, and will hopefully give me something to be watching for in other episodes in hopes of spotting similar themes and patterns that I haven't noticed yet!  

[FacelessMinion]

I  don't like to enter in this type of debate anymore, because it seems it always turned ugly in previous incarnations. Can we even agree on a definition of shoujo-ai? Is Utena and Anthy shoujo-ai? Ritsuko and Maya? Rakka and Reki from Haibane renmei?

In my opinion, the bond between the Saplings is much deeper than what is usually understood by romantic love.

As for what they do when the lights are out, that is their business.  :wink: I do get very tired of arguments that boil down to "K&M can't be evil lesbians but it's ok for C to be because

Spoiler: show

she dies".

[JP Yuri]

I do get very tired of arguments that boil down to "K&M can't be evil lesbians but it's ok for C to be because

Spoiler: show

she dies".

Or rather,

Spoiler: show

Chloe died

because she's a lesbian, and

Spoiler: show

Mireille and Kirika lived

because they're 'straight'.

[FallenAngel]

I've had theories that Kirika has a crush on Mireille from the start, my biggest clue being from one of the first episodes I saw -- the beach in Uglia.  Mireille says "it's so beautiful", Kirika is looking at her, then quickly, deliberately, catching-herself-thinking-something-she-probably-shouldn't, looks away.  The one little tiny eye movement, the timing around how long she looked, versus how quickly she stopped, well, I recognized it.  There's a lot of unspoken moments like that, unspoken, but recognizably meaningful.

Yeah, that's for me the moment we see the first time romantic emotions from Kirika for Mireille. For Mireille is it much harder to judge, because from the beginning she treats Kirika like a little sister. But I tend to put it in ep.1, as she tenderly watches the sleeping Kirika.

Can we even agree on a definition of shoujo-ai?

That is an important point. It seems to me, that the ones who deny the shoujo-ai between k&M think "shoujo-ai=lesbian", which it isn't.

I do get very tired of arguments that boil down to "K&M can't be evil lesbians ...

Unfortunatly many (the most?) people are homophobic, think that homosexuality is something perverted, unnatural or impure. Therefore they deny the romantic side of K&M's relationship.

I wonder what these people think about K&M's future. Neither Kirika nor Mireille have a family. Because they have commited so many crimes (Kirikas bodycount is higher than 100, Mireilles exceeds 50), they can't start "normal" relationships and found families. Their pasts are not only a threat for them self, but also for any person in a relationship with them. That's shown many times in Noir. So I wonder how dark their lifes will look if they don't have a romantic relationship.

[MartAnimE]

That is an important point. It seems to me, that the ones who deny the shoujo-ai between k&M think "shoujo-ai=lesbian", which it isn't.

 ok I see now. And I kinda agree that shoujo-ai doesn't necessarily have to imply a lesbian relationship. So maybe I shouldn't have used the term "shoujo-ai" on this thread's title then. Well then, regardless of the fact that Kirika and Mireille love each other (which they do), what I really meant to ask was if people would interpretate this love as something romantic, as in a couple, or as something else...
 I really never meant to offend anyone. Nor have I stated anything offensive I believe. ^^; sigh...

[Syaoran]

hum... interesting thread...
I can't really explain the way I think their love is... but one thing I'm sure, there's love between them, but maybe not that kind of love you people are thinking... it's something more than words and touch, they both know how each other feel without even saying something... Just by being near to each other they both know what the other one feels and how she will react, at least I think Kirika never stranges something and never gets impressed about Mireille's reactions, it's as if she always knows what Mireille will do or something like that... ^^;
I really can't put in words all my thoughts about this kind of love... It's something really nice to see in an anime and I love it but I can't really say all the feelings I get when watching it... I would need a new dictionary with words only related to this to explain what I think!
Maybe you think I'm crazy or something but it's really hard to explain what I think ^^;

[K55]

Mirelle and Kirika loved each other.  During the gun fight they were intentionally missing each other and Kirika, with superior skills, was running from Mirelle instead of just overwhelming her.  Then we see Kirika save Mirelle's life and then later was willing to die to protect her.

Mirelle on the other hand was taking shots towards Kirika rather than at her and in the end could not bear to see her die. Though Mirelle was sick of killing by the time she confronted Altena, Kirika was part of the exit strategy and nobody was going to prevent her from departing with her.

I think there loved for each other was much deeper than then both sisterly or romantic love.  I think it was a de facto marriage of sort as outlined in the book of Langenelle

[FallenAngel]

... Just by being near to each other they both know what the other one feels and how she will react, at least I think Kirika never stranges something and never gets impressed about Mireille's reactions, it's as if she always knows what Mireille will do or something like that... ^^;

Is it really that? While the moments of blind understanding are rare and mostly limited to their work, you can find in nearly every episode (a) scene(s) where one doesn't know (or at least doesn't understand) what the other feels or wants.

[Cyberia]

hey interesting discussion,

I think itīs not possible to define the relationship between K&M without saying the exact time ( episode ). It change almost in every episode.  

But I think at the end, they confess each other,  that they cannot live apart,alone -> (  Love? I think yes  )  

(  K. on the cemetery )
( M. over the lava )

[K55]

(  K. on the cemetery )
( M. over the lava )

In the cemetary?  I don't recall her professing her love. I do recall Mirelle was very relieved that Kirika was alive after Chloe's "guidance". Very much so indeed but then when Mirelle  found out that Kirika had killed her parents and older brother, she couldn't kill Kirika. She knew it was true but stated she would kill Kirika on a later date but we all knew she couldn't!!!

cut to:

Later, in a cafe knowing Kirika was gone, perhaps forever, it was then she decided Altena is "toast" and Kirika was coming back into her life. (My opinion.)

Now, somewhere between Spain and France, aka: the manor, Kirika  was resigned to becoming the True Noir with Chloe. Mirellle was "gone, gone"; (to quote Patti Smith from the song Redondo Beach), and Kirika knew that she had to keep it that way to protect her. Mirelle could never come near them for Chloe would kill her and she couldn't have let that happen. Hence, she would disappear into the manor and never see Mirelle again.

When Mirelle showed up, Kirika freaked - told her to get lost or else - but then had to be the one to chase away Mirelle or Chloe would kill her fast. Her strategy: shoot, miss, run form Mirelle and let Mirelle chase her away from Chloe.

The rest is true love and True Noi

[JP Yuri]

(  K. on the cemetery )
( M. over the lava )

In the cemetary?  I don't recall her professing her love.

I don't either. I do recall Kirika professing her love in the letter in episode 23, though.

Later, in a cafe knowing Kirika was gone, perhaps forever, it was then she decided Altena is "toast" and Kirika was coming back into her life. (My opinion.)

I think she decided that while reading Kirika's letter.

Now, somewhere between Spain and France, aka: the manor, Kirika  was resigned to becoming the True Noir with Chloe. Mirellle was "gone, gone"; (to quote Patti Smith from the song Redondo Beach), and Kirika knew that she had to keep it that way to protect her. Mirelle could never come near them for Chloe would kill her and she couldn't have let that happen. Hence, she would disappear into the manor and never see Mirelle again.

When Mirelle showed up, Kirika freaked - told her to get lost or else - but then had to be the one to chase away Mirelle or Chloe would kill her fast. Her strategy: shoot, miss, run form Mirelle and let Mirelle chase her away from Chloe.

The rest is true love and True Noi

I interpreted that scene very differently. The last time Kirika saw Mireille, Mireille had just hurt her badly by refusing to kill her. While she was at the Manor, Dark Kirika harbored hostility for Mireille because she felt betrayed. And I do think DK tried to kill Mireille, but Mireille's skills were good enough to keep her from getting killed.

About Chloe, in episode 24 she tells Kirika that after the ceremony was done and they've become Noir, to let's invite Mireille to another tea party, and she (Chloe) seemed happy about it. It wasn't until Mireille interruped Kirika and Chloe in episode 25 that Chloe decided to kill her.

[FacelessMinion]

I interpreted that scene very differently. The last time Kirika saw Mireille, Mireille had just hurt her badly by refusing to kill her.

Worse, Mireille actually said she would kill Kirika the next time they met. So a logical assumption was that Mireille was at the Manor to kill Kirika. The whole scene with the pocketwatch makes no sense if Kirika was trying to save Mireille from Chloe.

It wasn't until Mireille interruped Kirika and Chloe in episode 25 that Chloe decided to kill her.

Actually it wasn't until after Mireille was pointing her gun at a disarmed Kirika...

[Cyberia]

I want to try to show, why I think about the professing on the cemetary!

First, the scene on the cemetary ( Ep. 21 )  is the last meeting from K&M before he letter! ( Ep. 23 )

Cemetry: Kirika >       Mireille ><

>I canīt atone.
>There is no way for me to atone.
>I was the one who killed them.
>It was me.
>Iīm ...
>... not capable of atonement.

>We had a promise, didnīt we .
>That you would kill me when it all became clear.
>That time has come.
>Now, do it.

>Now...

>Whatīs wrong ?

>Mireille ?

>Mireille...
>Please...
>Shoot...
>Shoot me.
>Shoot...
>Shoot me! Me!
>Mireille! Mireille !
>Mire...

>< I will...
><... keep my promise.      
>< When next time we meet...              
>< When that time comes, I will not fail

# After my opinion, Kirika interprete this:          
# Mireille donīt want to be together with me anymore ! **


>Wait, Mireille !                # Donīt leave me !!!
>Wait!
>Please!
>Mireille!
>Kill me!
>Mireille! Mireille!
>Mireille...
>Mireille...
>Kill me...
>Mireille...
>Mireille...

# In Ep. 23 M. discover the letter!

"Mireille, I have a very bad feeling."
"That is why I write this to you now."
"That time, Chloe said that the Soldats were my true home."
"I may never be able to see you again."
"There is another me. it is a feeling I have."
" I do not mind being killed by you."
"But if that moment came"
"and there was no time for a final exchange of words, "
" I could never bear that."     ##       **
"Because there is something I want to tell you, no matter what."
" Mireille, I was alone, alone for a long time. "
" I had nothing. "
" It frightened me, and it hurt."
" But I was not alone."
" When I learned that Noir was originally a name for two, "
" it was, of course, a shock, "
" but in my heart, I felt joy. "
" I had you. "                       ##         !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
" Mireille, "
" you were there for me and I was happy. "
" I was happy. "
" very much so. "
"My dear Mireille ..."
" Oh, I just cannot express it well in writing. " # ( so cute
" Thank you, Mireille. "
" thank you "

In the letter for Kirika the cemetry was like a rejection, I think ( ** )

If the last 9 sentences are not a dear proof!, and that she cannot live without M.  
 I donīt know ^^

[MartAnimE]

You know, in my opinion, Dark Kirika doesn't love anyone or anything... she's a badass emotionless killing machine who just kills mechanically without giving it a second tought. She's even quite cold to Chloe and Althena. When she gets to the Manor, Althena kindly welcomes her home to what she replies "I'm home" but it all sounds so emotionless, like she's a robot programed to think the manor is her home and to become noir with Chloe is her purpose; she never looks enthusiastic about becoming noir like Chloe is either, she acts like it's something she must do rather than something she wants to do.

 So I think there's no way she would fell any kind of affection for Mireille to the point of intentionally missing all the shots. Dark Kirika is just not like the real Kirika to me, I think of her as an entirely different person disconected from real Kirika's life experiences, so why would she feel any kind of consideration towards Mireille? They practically didn't know each other! I think Dark Kirika was definetely trying to finish Mireille off just to get done with the noir ritual thing with Chloe once and for all.

 I think the only one true Kirika was the one remaining at the end , the one that left with Mireille! So all the other counter parts (how many might those have been) must have fallen into the lava pit along with Althena! In the end, only the one Kirika that was willing to reach out for Mireille's hand was the one able to keep on living! So yeah, you might say it's love. But, as I've said before, whether Kirika and Mireille love each other was never the real topic of discussion of this thread. Now, the way in which they might love each other is left open for everyone to interpretate it on its own way...