Topic: Bee Train yuri?

[janus]

I have always thought of M&K as "Comrades-in-Arms".  In some ways closer than lovers and in other ways, competitors.

[zlodei]

I have always thought of M&K as "Comrades-in-Arms". 

That's my opinion regarding the relationship between them, that kind of tight relationship based entirely on trust you can only reach by going through hell together. The kind of bond you hear about with soldiers in war and whatnot who are often ready to give their lives for people with whom in normal circumstances they probably wouldn't even associate. That kind of brotherhood doesn't make them gay does it? To be honest, nothing more than that ever crossed my mind when I first watched it, and I was really surprised when I read some of the speculation going around. I think the fact that a lot of people can watch the whole series without the thought entering their minds is proof enough that it is far from "obvious".

Don't agree about competitors though... Competing for what?

[Alesiopdv]

I have always thought of M&K as "Comrades-in-Arms".  In some ways closer than lovers and in other ways, competitors.

I agree with that definition because their reltionship was a troublesome and complicated one. We dont know what happen with them afeter the ende, maybe they married and got children. But the importan thing is the story about two people who form abond between them.
And that wasnt the so called "bond" between samurais in Feudal Japan? For the japanes that sort of relationship between two peole that trascend friendship was greatly apreciated
We never know the true nature of Noir, Aparentilly they ahve to start a war or somthing and change the present war with a revolution but we will never know, unless MAshimo say it.
There is alot of interesting things to analyze in Noir.
BUt for me will always be the love story of the triangle between Kirika-Mirielle-Chloe, regards of the whole guns-masson cult- thing. For me is a story about human nature, sin redemption and nature and the develompment of their love and frienship.

[Cyberia]

We dont know what happen with them afeter the ende, maybe they married and got children.

Indeed, they got children,  looking sweet       

BUt for me will always be the love story of the triangle between Kirika-Mirielle-Chloe, regards of the whole guns-masson cult- thing. For me is a story about human nature, sin redemption and nature and the develompment of their love and frienship.

I think that fit for every person here, or not ? It's a big part in Noir and inseparable.

[janus]

SPOILER ALERT











Competitors - Mireille promised to kill Kirika once she found out who she (Kirika) was in the first episode.  In a later episode, Mireille debates wheather or not to leave Kirika to die.  And the big showdown.

[regie]

I have always thought of M&K as "Comrades-in-Arms".  In some ways closer than lovers and in other ways, competitors.

I also agree with janus appreciation mainly because being myself in the military I've seen similar bonds. The military itself encourages the notion of a battle buddy or a wingman, someone you can go through hell and back with and someone you trust enough to trust your own life to. It is interesting to remember the bond a cop creates with his/her partner. The achieve a sense of trust and closeness and there's also the fact they share something in common only those in that profession understand and that not even their loved ones might understand.

Somehow, writing this brings to mind when I watched "LOTR, The Return of the King" at the cinema, when Frodo and Sam are talking to each other at the climatic moment of the movie, my husband was whispering "kiss him, kiss him" and I have to agree that the moment was almost romantic.  I guess that type of close-knit relationship parallels the one that Kirika and Mireille develop throughout the series.

[Limelda Jorg]

I have always thought of M&K as "Comrades-in-Arms".  In some ways closer than lovers and in other ways, competitors.

You couldn't say it in better terms.
All this discussion about being lesbians or not reminds me a lot of things about the same discussion with other anime series.
I'm not agree with Alesiopdv, I don't think that is something obvious. To analyse this, you have to keep in mind a lot of things. First, the anime comes from Japan, and japanese people has a very different point of view of several matters. There are a lot of series where western people only see "lesbians" and "yuri" because western people use to see everything in black and white, missing the grey in the middle. So if two girls are close enough, sharing a deep friendship, they have to be lesbians. That's a very poor and inmature way of see the world.
This same discussion is recurrent in Bubblegum Crisis Tokyo 2040 fandom, where thanks to the changes that ADV made in the english script, a lot of people think that Linna and Priss are lebians. They are comrades and partners and Linna has a great devotion for Priss and in some points she feels envy for Priss too. In this same series we have Sylia Stingray who really has some lesbian vibes, but she could be categorized as bisexual. The funny thing is the fandom care about Linna being a lesbian when this observation is out of character and out of the original canon.
With Noir happens something similar. I can accept some lesbian vibes from Chloe and Altena, but this vibes don't mean that they ARE really lesbians. The two of them are characters with a deeper emotional disorder, they can be anything besides lesbians. Chloe is obsesive, she grew up being obsesive with Kirika and living only with Altena in the Manor doesn't help her so much. We can even say that Chloe feels a very deep admiration for Kirika tha could be translate as "love" but not in the most pure sexual way.
I think that in Noir's case and mainly in Mireille and Kirika's terms we are dealing with friendship and partnership as well with a very intrincate relationship since they are in a tension point always. Kirika killed Mireille's parents and Mireille said that she would kill Kirika when everything ends. This is more complex than a lesbian relationship IMO. As I read in other posts in this thread, Mireille isn't a shy girl. If she would want to have something with Kirika she would do it for sure. And the examples Alesiopdv put as prove of their "lesbian relationship" aren't enough. Sleep in the same bed with someone doesn't imply that you have to have sex with that person, just to mention one thing.
About other animes dealing with yuri and shoujo ai, Kannazuki no Miko is one of the best examples. I didn't like Kannazuki, but isn't because of the yuri factor. I didn't like it because the mix of genres this series have. You have mechas, mythological demons, schoolgirls, mikos and yuri. All in a 13 episodes series where anything of those things were develop in a deeper way. The love story was the best and if the series would focuss more in that would be much better.

I agree with that definition because their reltionship was a troublesome and complicated one. We dont know what happen with them afeter the ende, maybe they married and got children.

Hey man, sorry for blow out your baloon, but they maybe get married and have children in their next life. But in this time I doubt it.

Spoiler: show

So the two shots and the broken watch at the last scene of the last episode, didn't mean anything to you? In this lifetime, the only thing they would share will be a coffin, six feet under earth.

So if you want to see good stories about lesbians, go and watch Utena and Sailor Moon.
In Sailor Moon there is the most beautiful love story between two women with Haruka and Michiru. And don't tell me that is dramatic and blah, because if you are looking for a mature story involving shoujo ai, must be dramatic and epic.

[regie]

We dont know what happen with them afeter the ende, maybe they married and got children.

Hey, isn't that RahXephon's ending? No wait, maybe that's what happens after the nude luge in the Utena movie. (If you haven't seen the movie and this sounds bizarre, you don't know half of it. Really. It's way weirder than it sounds.)

Sorry, somehow my head can't match the image of two hardened professional killers with that idyllic image. Romance? The series allows enough space to flow either way your fancy floats but to affirm it is indeed shoujo-ai is taking it a bit too far. Same with BGC 2040 and the whole Shizuru/Natsuki deal in Mai HiME but that's a whole new debate and I don't want to disgress. I think we can all agree on comrades in arms and competitors because that's indeed what's most unambiguous definition throughout the series.

[zlodei]

To analyse this, you have to keep in mind a lot of things. First, the anime comes from Japan, and japanese people has a very different point of view of several matters. There are a lot of series where western people only see "lesbians" and "yuri" because western people use to see everything in black and white, missing the grey in the middle. So if two girls are close enough, sharing a deep friendship, they have to be lesbians. That's a very poor and inmature way of see the world.

Good point. I frequently see Asian girls holding hands without qualms as they walk around the city but I have yet to see the same between two white girls.

[nae]

Mainly a response to Carrie Asagiri's post:

First, I know that the post was made in disagreement to Alesiopdv. A lot of us have already made points to that effect. But it seems to drift into anti-yuri territory a few paragraphs down, so I'm almost compelled to post.

I sense that undercurrent I've seen before, that a yuri relationship would demean and simplify the characters and their relationship with each other. Let me just say that this does not have to be the case. Considered with love, care, and dexterity, the possibility of something more -- rather than being reductive -- adds to a reading of the relationship, giving it a new layer, increasing the richness of a text with fun subtext that was highly likely to have been deliberately placed there by the creators.

Although there are cultural differences, there are also codes that we share due to the proliferation of Western texts in places all over the world. Moreover, this is a somewhat shounen work created by people who certainly like girls. (I don't trust their intentions sometimes.) Okay, right, I'm not going into authorial intention. That's just speculation on my part; you may speculate as well.

In other words, "no harm in saying they're lesbians, and let's all have fun, right?" Okay, I'm done.

[Limelda Jorg]

I'm not agaisnt yuri or shoujo ai. I've enjoyed shoujo ai stories in the past when the characters were created in that way, same with shounen ai or yaoi. But I don't like to see characters that aren't lesbians or gays, being treated in that way. I think that Noir has so much more to offer as series beyond the supposed "shoujo ai" thing that some people claim to see.
And even when this thread is focused on Noir and Bee Train anime, I'll mention that this same thing is happening now with some series like Nana and Death Note. People is misunderstanding the stories and since Nana is focused in two girls living together, they labeled them as lesbians. And in Death Note some yaoi fans are seeing some yaoi vibes coming from the two main characters.
As I said before, we must understand the cultural difference coming from Japan before start to say something as the only truth. I never say that a yuri relationship will demean and simplifly the characters. As I said before too, check on Sailor Moon and you'll find one of the most interesting love stories and is with two women. I can say that Haruka and Michiru relationship is more interesting and deeper than the one between Usagi and Mamoru.
I'm not agaisnt yuri relationships but I don't think that Noir must be labeled like a shoujo ai story just because two girls are living together and sharing the same job. There are other things we must analyze first.

[nae]

Hmm, I don't think you understood my points. Maybe I didn't explain them well enough. I do see where you're coming from, definitely. I'm just saying that there's more to it, and that there are other ways to look at the matter besides this perspective.

Oh.... Is it that you're speaking from that feeling of dislike of misinterpretation, Carrie? If so, I think this may be a matter of opinion.

But, well, there are gay people in Japan too. And if you're speaking of cultural differences, queer issues are so taboo, who is to say that they aren't appearing in anime in some sublimated form? Again, I believe that looking at it this way doesn't take away but instead adds to the value of a work.

The overzealousness of yaoi/yuri fans may give bad impressions to outsiders, though.

[Ombrenuit]

The overzealousness of yaoi/yuri fans may give bad impressions to outsiders, though.

I have a feeling that is largely where most of the objections are coming from, mine included.

[JP Yuri]

I hope I don't sound too bitter or combative, but (at least before Fignae jumped in) I was getting the impression that 1. this board is saying "M&K (or really any anime character since the thread expanded to shoujo-ai as a whole) can't be gay" in a way that suggests being gay is a Bad Thing; and 2. that people here think lesbians are more immature, more simplistic, and somehow more degraded because They're Lesbians (and by extension, straight women are more mature, more complex, etc, because They're Straight).

I'm not talking about Marta or anyone who says that M&K are ambiguous and could go either way, I'm talking about people who seem to say being a lesbian is a Bad Thing..

[Limelda Jorg]

I'm not saying that being lesbian is a Bad Thing, hell I'm bisexual and I perfectly understand all this matter. I don't like when people put labels on series, characters, stories and on another people too, just because of the most simple appearance. We see two girls together then they are lesbian, why they can't be best friends? why they can't be partners? why they can't be camrades? Why they can't be soulmates?
We can't say that is something OBVIOUS that Mireille and Kirika are lesbians and that they are lovers because they are sharing the same roof and the same job. I think that kind of view is something immature. Just assume things without knowing the facts. We have a very deep story in Noir in a lot of levels, and even when we only have 4 main characters, they are develop in an excellent way. Almost the whole series is M&K and did we see them kiss to each other? No. Did we see them having a loving aptitude to each other? No. They were engaged in a very complex drama, we can affirm that with the time they developed a friendship and partnership. But we can see something else coming from Chloe, we can see the way she was obsessed and admirated Kirika. We can sense that under all that emotional mixture she really had an antraction.
I'm not saying that straight women are more mature than lesbians. I'm just saying that labeled as lesbian any relationship envolving two women is absurb.
And talking about the cultural differences...Japan has its taboos but remember that this country is which invented the shoujo ai, shounen ai, yuri and yaoi as popular genres in movies, comics and animes. Hell, they even have Yaoi and Yuri Conventions there. So I don't think that they need sublimated forms if they want to show that kind of things.
And I must say that I really love the way Japanese comics and anime manage this issues. The taboo is in the western minds, look at any western tv series or movie about gays and you'll see that they only focalized on sex. But if you see the same matter treat by japanese authors, you'll notice that they put more emphasis in the feelings and emotions.