[Reasons for Kirikas amnesia]

FallenAngel
Nun Fighter
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:39 pm    
 Post subject: Reasons for Kirikas amnesia   

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I would appreciate if you could tell us how you'v voted and why, but without arguing to others. 

I vote for brainwash. For me it fits best. She moved short before, so are no people around who can tell her about her past. Also her "parents" left her. Only personal memories to her past are lost. The knowledge how to kill, the knowledge for school, that many languages she speaks, all there. And some memories recover, triggered from special events or objects, like the watch or the final guidance.
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Fellini 8.5
Pezzant


Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 24
Location: Pultneyville, NY
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:34 pm    Post subject:    

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I'm solidly in the "hypnotized" camp.
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 219
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:49 pm    Post subject:    

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I personally think it was a traumatic event, seeing as another traumatic event (the gunshot) made her remember.
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:29 pm    Post subject:    

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Since Mireille said the Soldats took Kirika's memories, I think we are supposed to believe they did so, and on purpose. Her memory loss seems too well planned out by me to think it was an accident, because how else could Chloe have been so sure her final guidance would trigger the selected memory? 

It all sounds like classic hypnotism to me... 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:25 am    Post subject:    

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I think she lost her memories all by herself, because 
- I see no convincing argument why whoever could deliberately cause it would benefit from the amnesia. 
- When she does remember, she is sufficiently upset to give credence to the theory that she would have repressed those memories by herself. 
- the first thing she does remember is I think a clue to why she repressed her memories. 
- the actual trigger for the amnesia was probably something related to her fake parents in Japan. Not sure if it was something horrible or the lack of something horrible happening. 
- the "final guidance" is the Noir equivalent of hitting someone over the head with a baseball bat to restore their memory. 

I voted for "other" because I don't like the distinction between 2 and 3: Kirika doesn't chose to do horrible things! 
(which incidentally makes her actions a "sin" in the Reformed but not in the Catholic dogma where only an act of free will can be a sin  ) 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:42 am    Post subject:    

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Kirika: Thank you Faceless Minion  

Sprite: I'm also in agreement with Faceless Minion; I voted for #2 but was really between #2 and #3, she could have done something or it happened to her. I personally believe it was orchestrated by the Soldats, as if they knew that Kirika was near to breaking point after observing her for countless years (they probably had this all planned, did exactly the right things to split her personality down the middle and then leave her highly vulnerable to repressing her memories) and subjected her to one final act to shatter her. 

FallenAngel says that Kirika only forgets personal memories and remembers her languages and knowledge of how to kill, but that's how psychogenic (self-inflicted) amnesia works - your brain doesn't self-destruct, you just forget who you are. Otherwise, nobody who woke up with amnesia would be able to speak, walk, feed themselves, etc. If someone whacks you over the head with a baseball bat (physiological/organic trauma) you may very well have to spend years learning how to walk again. And there's no evidence to the best of my knowledge that anyone can brainwash or hypnotise a person into forgetting their entire life. 
 
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#14
Pezzant


Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 24
Location: at the bottom
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:57 am    Post subject:    

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I voted for brainwashing, even though that's not exactly what I think happened. I think that amnesia is the "price" of being as skilled as Kirika is. By losing most of her memories (or simply never remembering them to begin with), she is able to avoid emotional baggage. Her mind is free of (what Altena considered) unimportant memories, and so she's able to concentrate on the important things in life -- like killing people. 

That is, Altena didn't directly cause it, but it was a side-effect of making Kirika such a capable assassin. So I'd say it's Kirika's training that caused her not to bother moving mundane thoughts into long-term memory. 

Or something. I don't know, but hypnosis just doesn't seem like it fits into Noir very well. I mean, the show seems too realistic for her to use hypnosis to make people cary out her will. And I can't see Altena just letting Kirika forget stuff if it went against her plans, so she must've known it would happen.
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:03 pm    Post subject:    

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Whoops, I think I voted wrong. 

A long, long, time ago, in a galaxy far away, Naboo was under an atta--*cough cough* I mean, I supported the hyptnotism idea, since her memory loss appeared sudden and remarkably thorough. 

Currently, I'm leaning towards the "self-induced denial/memory-loss with the possible addition of a shell/split personality, the formation of which was probably encouraged by the Soldats" theory. If anyone spotted her regressing, it wouldn't take much to cement it in place: crank up her training regimine, subject her to social and sensory isolation, yadda yadda. 

You can explain the whole Magic Bullet of Recall +5 (-10000 if you're stupid and forget to miss on purpose) any number of ways. I like the one a bud of mine came up with, since it matches up thematically with the rest of the series: in order to become whole again, Kirika has to accept who she is and what she does. She's got the training, the killer instinct, everything she needs to do her job...except for one thing: she knows everything about death, but has yet to experience it for herself. She needs to know what its like to be on the receiving end, to see what all those sinners see in their last seconds of life. Who better to show her than the person she laters calls her other half? 

Originally, I thought this was a post-hypnotic suggestion thing. Upon rewatching the scene, I recalled that Chloe, in all honesty, isn't really certain that this whole "final guidance" thing will work. I think she'd be more confident if actual hypnotism was involved, since that would give her a precise trigger to pull to restore Kirika to her evil-serial-killer-eyes self. (Heh heh, "trigger.) 

Would've been a riot if K had some really weird custom sights on the gun and C didn't realize it. 

C: .o0(Okay, exactly one millimeter above her right temple. Nick the hair, not the skin. Let's see now, it's been awhile...hmmm, you look down that bit, and line it up with this, and then you pull this lever thing here--) 

Gun: Blam! 

K: *splatters* 

C: ...Well, crap. 

By the way, the friend I hooked on Noir said, upon seeing K's sweet-mother-of-mercy-those-eyes-scary-scary-aaaiiiieee look, commented that he has only seen a look of such total focus on one other anime character: M.D. Geist. (Those familiar with the series (I think he's the logo for US Manga Corps or something) should be impressed.)
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Ross
Forum Minion


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Virginia Beach, VA USA
 Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:06 am    Post subject:    

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I go with she did it herself/tramatic event, with possible Soldat influence. 

My theory is that Kirka has multiple personalities, which fits the story quite nicely, and also fits in with the amnesia. People suffering from this frequently do not know what their other personalities know, remember, have done, etc. 

Basically I think the Kirika we meet at the begining of the series doesn't remember because she was a repressed personality that somehow rose to being the dominant one. By becoming the dominant personality, she dosen't remember what the other Kirka(s) did, but can still function as a normal person. 

This also explains why she has no long term memory, such as childhood, parents, or really anything before she woke up. She only remembers waking up, because that's when that personality actually surfaces consciously. 

I think she developed the multiple personalities on her own without help from anyone, as a defense mechanism. It's possible that the Soldats did indeed hypnotize her to wake up in that personality, but I don't think they brainwashed her into that condition. Even if the Soldats did hypnotize her to wake up that way (which conviniently explains that), they didn't invent the personality, nor probably had any control over that personality surfacing. 

My take is that one day she lost it. The Soldats examined her and found the other personality had taken over, or was going to take over, and hypnotized her to simply wake up with that personality as dominate. 

That explains why Kirika doesn't remember without having brain damage. 

That explains why she wakes up with no memories, AT ALL, but still has total recall of physical tasks such as reading, first-aid, weapon maintenance, breaking necks, etc. 

That explains why "the Soldats stole her memories". 

That explains the why of the shadows. 

That explains how Kirika changes in the midst of combat later in the show. 

That explains how her memories can be brought back with the magic bullet(Rather than the "crack on the head" amnesia deal, it's really a post-hypnotic suggestion that opens up her memories of the other Kirika personality so that all the Kirikas know what the others know) 

That explains her letter to Mirielle. 


Basically, her contracting multiple personality disorder goes the farthest to explain the events, and still leaves open the possibility of some Soldat influence on her to bring her to awake in her bed and go on about the rituals of Noir. 

Ross 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 95
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:35 pm    Post subject:    

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I totally agree with fallenangel. I also voted for 'brainwashed', because it still makes the most sense. 
 
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Bulmafox
Pezzant


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:18 am    Post subject:    

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Ross wrote: 

That explains her letter to Mirielle. 
 


I personally thoughjt Kirika was talking about Chloe, because after she kills her, she says that the other her was Chloe.
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:02 am    Post subject:    

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I've never heard that interpretation before....  It makes sense, but I'm 99% sure it was meant to be Dark Kirika. 
 
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Bulmafox
Pezzant


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:58 am    Post subject:    

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Then why have her say Chloe was the other her after she kills her?
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:45 pm    Post subject:    

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Regarding the letter I agree with Sprite. That she later says about Chloe "She was my other me" I think is literaly. Her other me is Noir, Chloe is Noir. And as Chloe dies, Noir also dies, in reality and inside Kirika.
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To Earth. And to men. 
The first Angel, who felt remorse. 
The only Angel, who felt ever. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject:    

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Why does everyone assume that Kirika wrote the letter rather than that Altena or a knight of Paris planted it to get Mireille to the Manor? 

::ducks and runs for cover:: 
 
Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:27 pm    Post subject:    

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*Mireille looks again at the letter* 

M: "Signed, 'Boris'? Who the hell?" 

Boris: "Whoops." 

M: "Oh, wait, there's a second note here. 'All to my wife, signed Mr. Orchid.' The....plant?" 

The Plant: "Alas, I die, Horatio! This potent poison --" 

Boris: "Die!" *shoots plant* 

The Plant: "Avenge me!" 

*title card: Vert en Noir: Vegetative Side Story*
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:03 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Why does everyone assume that Kirika wrote the letter rather than that Altena or a knight of Paris planted it to get Mireille to the Manor? 

::ducks and runs for cover:: 


Can you imagine Altena or a Knight writing something that mushy? :3 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:30 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
Can you imagine Altena or a Knight writing something that mushy? :3 

They forced Nenene to write it by holding Yomiko hostage. Oops, wrong series... 
 
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[Noir Fanfic help? French school stuff]
  
 
Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:49 am    Post subject: Noir Fanfic help? French school stuff    

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For whoever's interested, I plan on writing a "Kirika survives high school" fic, but I don't want it to come across as too American, so does anyone here know anything about French school culture? Specifically, things like cliques (especially one bent on experiencing Kirika's lifestyle; goths I guess you could say; and mean popular girls); bullies; raves or other illegal parties; what the French equivalent for Grade 10 is; what determines which school Kirika goes to in Paris; administration--especially the principal or its equivalent--and discipline; the French school year; and school architecture (what a typical Parisian school looks like from outside). Any help anyone can give me will be deeply appreciated and I will give that person credit in my fic.
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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rin
Soldat


Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 44

 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:34 pm    Post subject:    

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Well, in my father's time (and location - he was not in Paris, but in the Champagne area) the school day was a lot longer than it normally is in US high schools. It officially started at 8 AM, but you could get to school at 7:30 or so and have the equivalent of the American study hall. Then from 8 to 10 you would have two classes, lasting an hour each. After that the timetable is as follows: 

10:00 - 10:30 - break/reces 
10:30 - 12:30 - 2 more hour-long classes 
12:30 - 1:30 - lunch 
1:30 - 2:00 - study hall 
2:00 - 4:00 - PE or Art (note: most classes were one hour long, but classes like PE, Art, and Biology were 2 hours long) 
4:00 - 4:30 - break/recess 
4:30 - 6:00 - exams or study hall (generally there were 2 or 3 exams per week. This timetable ran on a 5-day rotation - you would get different classes depending on what day it was. In addition, on Wednesdays and Saturdays you'd only go to school for part of the day, in the morning) 

At 6:00 you'd go home. 

The school day was long, and one could stay up until midnight doing homework, so there was not a lot of free time for raves (though my father did know one guy who managed to fit stuff like that into his schedule. He then told me the guy later died in a car crash, presumably from drinking and driving). Anyway, I'm not so sure Kirika would go to one... or be involved in clique wars. 

(Personal rant: why do school stories often have a conflict between mean popular girls and nice unpopular girls??!! Not all popular girls are mean, and not all unpopular girls are nice. I'd like to see a story where the popular girls aren't selfish, manipulative brats.... (This isn't directed at you, by the way, it's just an expression of my disdain for the stereotypes.)) 

As for Grade 10, the American grade for 15-16 year-olds (depending on when your birthday is), it would have been Seconde. In France it goes from large number to small number, instead of the other way around. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:13 am    Post subject:    

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I don't know about France, but this seems similar to how it was in Belgium, except the schedule was more compact. 

Are schools in France also for the most part either public schools or catholic schools? 

The actual schedule would depend on the program we followed. In my school we had Latin, scienceA, scienceB, and economics programs. You could choose a program but the actual classes within the program were fixed and the same for everybody. We stayed mostly in the same classroom and teachers rotated, except for chemistry, PE and some other things, which had dedicated rooms. We had 8 hours of class a day, monday-friday, 4 hours on wednesdays, following a weekly schedule that sometimes changed by trimester. All hours were actual classes, there was no "study hall" time scheduled. There was a 10 minute break in the middle of the morning and of the afternoon, in which we were expected to go outside. We usually walked around talking, or sometimes held some kind of tag or ball game. Sometimes there was a scuffle. There used to be a smoking room, but by my time smoking in school was forbidden, so people were very often caught smoking in the toilets. Hour changes were signaled by bell. We were to line up at the signal and march in by class. When a teacher or headmaster entered, we would stand up, but no other ceremonies were used. The PA system was never used, announcements were always in person. 

I never saw the kind of "popularity wars" like they show in American movies. People with common interests would flock together, and sometimes a "clique" would pick on someone, but then their own clique would defend them. There was no kind of "popularity hierarchy" that I was aware of. Nobody was expected to be universally shunned because some clique disliked them. Most of the time we were too busy for that kind of nonsense. The majority of students was actually trying to learn something. 

Disciplinary actions could be standing in the hallway, extra work (writing a paper on something) or staying after hours, or calling the parents. You had to push it fairly hard to be disciplined, mostly we were left to ourselves. For example, if there was a fight during recess, the supervising teacher would just watch together with everyone else, and I suppose making sure things didn't get too out of hand. When the fighters would be tired, he would disperse the crowd and tell the delinquents that they were not supposed to fight, and if they made a habit out of it they would get into trouble.  

There was no concept of "illegal" parties that I know of. If we wanted a party, we held a party. If we wanted to hold it at the school, of course we needed permission, but there were other venues available. There were usually only a couple of school-related ones during the year, as we were busy with other things. 

There are no laws here that minors can't drink. You can get beer from vending machines on the street... 

Schools can have any appearance. Some may be located in medieval convent buildings, others in completely new concrete structures. Or any combination of both. In general you can probably assume it will seem very cramped compared to American schools, especially in the city. The school may use the municipal sports facilities rather than having its own. 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Kirika's "lifestyle".  
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:53 am    Post subject:     

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rin wrote: 

The school day was long, and one could stay up until midnight doing homework, so there was not a lot of free time for raves  


The group that I plan on Kirika hanging with wouldn't let such trifles as homework get in their way (bad news much?)  (see reply to Faceless' qouote) 

FacelessMinion wrote: 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Kirika's "lifestyle".  


I mean all angst, dark, angst, brooding, angst, death, and did I mention angst? Stuff that goths here in the States would gravitate to. They don't know that Kirika's been there, done that, got a t-shirt, but they wanna try their hardest to be (unknowingly) like her. They noticed her in the first place because she was all angsting and brooding all alone (by that point she had alienated pretty much everyone else, that's why she's alone.) I compared it to Kirika because at several points she'll say something about she can't see why they would want to be like her. 


Unless there really aren't people like that in France and I have to re-plan that part. 
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:08 am    Post subject:    

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I was never aware of anyone interested in angst for its own sake, but things may have changed. Perhaps the no-nukes groups obsessed over mutually assured destruction a little too much. At the risk of appearing hopelessly dated, I can say we had some punks... So I'm afraid I can't help with this much. 

I forgot to mention, but at some point there was a dress code in my school, so nobody looked quite as crazy as they were. It depended totally on who was the principal at the time (and contrary to what one might imagine, the "brother director" was far less autoritarian than his secular successor). 

And people who didn't care about their homework wouldn't last long in high school. If they didn't get their act together within a year, they would soon find themselves in a different school learning how to be a sanitary technician or something like that. 

I'm afraid we have something of a culture gap here. I find it very hard to imagine someone being shunned by everyone just because they seem quiet and brooding, or to attract a following for the same reason. It seems so... superficial somehow  Do students in American high schools only hang out with people that are just like them, and avoid everyone who is a little different? 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:11 pm    Post subject:     

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
I'm afraid we have something of a culture gap here. I find it very hard to imagine someone being shunned by everyone just because they seem quiet and brooding, or to attract a following for the same reason. It seems so... superficial somehow  Do students in American high schools only hang out with people that are just like them, and avoid everyone who is a little different? 


OMG, I had written out this big, long reply and I just lost it! ;_; the gist of it went like this: yes, American high schools do have cliques, and birds of a feather really do flock together, and sometimes people are mean about it. I found a big American high schol website called iHigh.com (http://www.ihigh.com). And here's a cliques article: http://www.ihigh.com/cliques.html 

A gossip article: 
http://www.ihigh.com/0,1773,2_4_0_93347,00.html 

And an archive of articles: 
http://www.ihigh.com/0,1773,3_4_0,00.html 

And it does seem that the meanest people are the most popular. Maybe they intimidate everyone else into liking them? 

I forgot to mention one very important thing regarding Kirika's unpopularity: most of the students are scared of her because she came *this* close to killing the biggest bully in school (and maybe his gang, too, if I feel like it); she had put him/them in the hospital and everyone watched. And the popular girls don't like her because they're mean people. 

Not to mention the principal (or head school administrator) had singled out Kirika and is constantly on her back. If you watch Yu Yu Hakusho, think Yusuke and his teachers. If it's not to inconsistent, I'll have the principal be a Soldat (maybe he's trying to intimidate or blackmail Kirika into compliance?) 

As for angst for its own sake, you might want to try browsing the alt.angst newsgroup and se what you can dig up: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&q=alt.angst 

Unless, of course, people and things like that don't exist in France, in which case I'll have to find another way to send Kirika on a slow downward spiral.  

And sanitation technicians? That would be a good karmic anvil for them.[/quote]
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:34 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
And it does seem that the meanest people are the most popular. Maybe they intimidate everyone else into liking them? 

I can't begin to fathom how that could possibly work  

And if I remember right, in the cafetaria we usually gathered by class, more or less, rather than a group of nerds on one side and a group of Kirika-wannabees on the other. Perhaps it was because we did a lot of things by class, meaning about 20 students. 

Or perhaps the students had to hang together against the mean, sadistic evil teachers... 

Quote: 
I forgot to mention one very important thing regarding Kirika's unpopularity: most of the students are scared of her because she came *this* close to killing the biggest bully in school (and maybe his gang, too, if I feel like it); she had put him/them in the hospital and everyone watched.  

I would think someone punishing the biggest bully would be reason for rounds of cheers, perhaps an impromptu parade carrying Kirika around the school at least three times (everyone carefully stepping on the fallen bully as they pass), and the undying affection of every sensible student.  American highschool is totally weird... 

But Belgium is not actually IN France, so who knows, things might be different a little south from here... Perhaps our German and Finnish friends can comment on their situation, since our French contingent has apparently diminished of late... 

Quote: 
And the popular girls don't like her because they're mean people.  

Again I'm completely baffled how anybody mean could possibly be popular. What IS this popularity, anyway? Is it self-declared or something? (there is a "why be popular" article on that site... so being popular is a choice?) Is everyone so desperate to slavishly follow a "leader" type? 

Quote: 
As for angst for its own sake, you might want to try browsing the alt.angst newsgroup  

I meant at school, that I've never seen it manifested at school. At least not a gang who were blatantly angsting for no apparent reason. 

Quote: 
Unless, of course, people and things like that don't exist in France, in which case I'll have to find another way to send Kirika on a slow downward spiral.  

What, are you planning to hurt poor Kirika-chan?  
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:17 pm    Post subject:     

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Bulmafox wrote: 
I forgot to mention one very important thing regarding Kirika's unpopularity: most of the students are scared of her because she came *this* close to killing the biggest bully in school (and maybe his gang, too, if I feel like it); she had put him/them in the hospital and everyone watched.  

I would think someone punishing the biggest bully would be reason for rounds of cheers, perhaps an impromptu parade carrying Kirika around the school at least three times (everyone carefully stepping on the fallen bully as they pass), and the undying affection of every sensible student.  American highschool is totally weird... 


Normally, Kirika *would* be hailed as a hero, but she takes things too far in the eyes of the students. There's a fine line between heroic and scary, and Kirika crosses that line. She has to consciously keep from killing him, and *just* manages to succeed. So now what's going through their minds is "OMG, that small girl nearly killed that huge bully! O.O Hope I'm not next..." 


Quote: 
Quote: 
And the popular girls don't like her because they're mean people.  

Again I'm completely baffled how anybody mean could possibly be popular. What IS this popularity, anyway? Is it self-declared or something? (there is a "why be popular" article on that site... so being popular is a choice?) Is everyone so desperate to slavishly follow a "leader" type?  


I'm really not sure of the exact mechanics of popularity. It's weird. 

EDIT: I think it's the need to fit in, yet stand out. American teenagers desperately need both. But I think it's this incredible need to belong. I think. 

Quote: 
Quote: 
Unless, of course, people and things like that don't exist in France, in which case I'll have to find another way to send Kirika on a slow downward spiral.  

What, are you planning to hurt poor Kirika-chan?  


Psychologically and socially, at least for a while. I've been watching too much Eva again. 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:07 pm    Post subject:    

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I still don't quite see it happening; why would anyone think Kirika would hurt them, just because she hurt a bully? There is also a risk of getting unbelievable; it is very unlikely that the school administration would let slide something the student body thought was too much. Kirika could be expelled or even get into juvenile correctional. It seems also very unlikely that Kirika would be so stupid as to show off in front of witnesses when it was not needed, to the point where she might attract attention from the law. Much as you may want to see Kirika punish your most "popular" guy, try not to get carried away... can't you come up with some psychological reasons for Kirika to feel isolated? That might be more believable, and a lot more interesting. Unless you really want to make a statement about American highschool life, but then doing it in France is... awkward? 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:22 pm    Post subject:     

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
I still don't quite see it happening; why would anyone think Kirika would hurt them, just because she hurt a bully? There is also a risk of getting unbelievable; it is very unlikely that the school administration would let slide something the student body thought was too much. Kirika could be expelled or even get into juvenile correctional. It seems also very unlikely that Kirika would be so stupid as to show off in front of witnesses when it was not needed, to the point where she might attract attention from the law. Much as you may want to see Kirika punish your most "popular" guy, try not to get carried away... can't you come up with some psychological reasons for Kirika to feel isolated? That might be more believable, and a lot more interesting. Unless you really want to make a statement about American highschool life, but then doing it in France is... awkward? 


I dunno...maybe. I'm still very open at this point. And Kirika's not consciously showing off. I'm going along the lines that killing is like a relfex for her, and she really has to think about it in order to not kill someone who attacks her. 

And she will at least get suspended, and the principal will start geting on her case.
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:52 am    Post subject:    

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I've thought about it for a while, and I think maybe bringing in bullies and mean popular girls is just going to cloud the issue. In the spirit of Noir, you want Kirika to feel rejected for what she is, not because there are mean people at school, right? We as readers have to wonder a little if we could accept Kirika, right? So I would recommend that you try to remove all references to bullies and popular girls from the story. How about instead there is this really nice, funny and playful guy or girl that everyone likes, who helps Kirika tremendously during her first week. Then someday he/she sneaks up on Kirika from behind, and covers her eyes saying "who is it". Kirika breaks both his/her arms before turning to look. 

I mean, it is Noir, we don't want to see mean people hitting on Kirika, we want to see Kirika hitting on herself. Nobody is going to care if Kirika gets in conflict with mean people, I mean, that is almost a given, right? We don't want clear divisions of good and bad guys. Unless you wanted to write a "Kirika: revenge of the nerds" parody. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Nun Fighter


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:49 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
How about instead there is this really nice, funny and playful guy or girl that everyone likes, who helps Kirika tremendously during her first week. Then someday he/she sneaks up on Kirika from behind, and covers her eyes saying "who is it". Kirika breaks both his/her arms before turning to look. 


 That's such a chilling idea.... if Bulmafox doesn't write it, someone has to. That's so cruel, but effective storywise.... she'd be horrified. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:42 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
 That's such a chilling idea.... if Bulmafox doesn't write it, someone has to. That's so cruel, but effective storywise.... she'd be horrified. 

Not that I like advocating cruelty to Kirika, but if you're going to do it anyway, better not be half-hearted about it, right? That would be disrespectful... 

EDIT: what I mean is, if you set out to hurt someone, at least it should be done right, otherwise you are adding insult to injury (Now I have a mental image of an angry ex that wants to hurt you by burning your favourite book, but burns a completely wrong one). 

(mail me if you really need to know details on how she could break those two arms without turning...)

Last edited by FacelessMinion on Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Nun Fighter


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:04 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Not that I like advocating cruelty to Kirika, but if you're going to do it anyway, better not be half-hearted about it, right? That would be disrespectful... 


Disclaimer: This post, nor its preceding or following posts, do not advocate cruelty to Kirika. Always keep your Kirika indoors when lighting fireworks. Respect your Kirika, and it will live a long and happy life. 

--this message brought to you by the Society For Prevention of Cruelty to Kirika 

(I'm now going to go put that in my sig.) 

Quote: 
(mail me if you really need to know details on how she could break those two arms without turning...) 


Consider yourself mailed, even though I haven't. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:37 am    Post subject:    

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Should have expected you to want to know the nasty details... 

Disclaimer: do not try this at home if you are not Kirika. If you are Kirika, you already know this, but don't try it at home anyway. 

You are standing minding your own business, when someone not much larger than yourself covers your eyes with their hands from behind. You reach up with both hands, like you were going to take off a pair of glasses, and take hold of their hands, your thumb on the back of their hand near the pinky, your fingers around the base of their thumb. Free your head by rotating their hands outward (clockwise on the right, counterclockwise on the left) until the back of their hands is facing down, simultaneously pulling forward. This locks both their elbows. Continue to pull forward until their elbows are approximately above your shoulders. Pull down sharply on both hands, breaking both elbows. Throw off the broken arms outwards, take a step forward with the left foot and turn, while preparing to strike a right-left combo, at which point you recognize your friend. The stepping forward is important because if the attacker doesn't lose consciousness immediately from the immense pain, he/she is likely to barf (on you, if you don't move). 

I can't believe I actually wrote this... 

Now, for completeness, the counter to this: 
When you feel the person in front of you has grabbed your hands and is pulling forward, pull back, knee them in the back, throw them down and give them a good stomping. 
 
Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject:     

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
How about instead there is this really nice, funny and playful guy or girl that everyone likes, who helps Kirika tremendously during her first week. Then someday he/she sneaks up on Kirika from behind, and covers her eyes saying "who is it". Kirika breaks both his/her arms before turning to look.  


Oh my...  ...that's evil. I think I like it. 
And I thought about it some more, too, ad I think I *will* toss the popular/mean girl and cliques thing and make her problems much more mundane. The only problem with that is I intend on covering the entire school year and there's a real danger of me writing Kirika into a rut. Maybe some academic problems (she's not stupid, I know, but Soldats *did* teach her to kill and little else; maybe that's how she meets that incredibly nice person) or some school events might help? Or anything else you can think of?
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:21 pm    Post subject:    

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We had yearly medical exams. Explaining her scars might be awkward... 

I think there is plenty of things you can probably come up with yourself to make it interesting; introducing various weird characters in her class or at school, art class, drama class, music class, debating club, organising a fundraising party for a home of abandoned cats, getting anonymous love letters, placing Kirika in that kind of situations should lead to interesting results... and would be a great cruel set-up for the nastiness to come... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Nun Fighter


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:31 am    Post subject:    

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You guys have awesome(ly evil) ideas. ^_^ I can't wait to read this.
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Disclaimer: This post, nor its preceding or following posts, do not advocate cruelty to Kirika. Always keep your Kirika indoors when lighting fireworks. Respect your Kirika, and it will live a long and happy life. 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:27 pm    Post subject:     

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I have a few more ideas for the revamped story I want to throw out here. 

At the beginning of the school year, someone prominent in the class announces a "welcome back to school bash", or something like that, and everyone is invited, including Kirika. Cue Mireille primping Kirika and Kirika angsting because she doesn't know what to say or how to act at a party. ("Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'?") And of course Kirika actually putzing about at the party. 

How whoever (especially that nice girl/guy if he/she has a crush on her) will react once they learn that Kirka has a girlfriend, although I suspect it won't be much of a problem except it will disappoint the girl/guy who may or may not be interested in her, 'cause she's already taken. 

I still want to include that Soldat principal in there somewhere. 

I also want to include a quote I made up yeasterday where someone asks Kirika what she does (in her free time/as a hobby/whatnot) and she blurts out "I kill people," then the person and their companion stare, confused, at Kirika before she hastily adds "...in..video games. You know, those first-person shooter things?" 

And I like that idea for the abandoned-cat fundraiser, provided Kirika is social enough by that time to organize it, and if she's not, I'm sure someone could help her out.  

EDIT: I think I'll make that first Kirika quote my new sig.
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:21 pm    Post subject:    

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Would Kirika doodle kittens in her course notes? Or little guys with bullseyes on their faces? 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:22 pm    Post subject:     

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Would Kirika doodle kittens in her course notes? Or little guys with bullseyes on their faces? 


I don't know, but it would be funny.
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Section_8
Kind Mother


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 238
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject:    

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If she does doodle because she's bored, consider that she might draw some really nasty things subconciously. Eg. maps of vital pressure points, internal organs, blueprints of the room's escape routes.... 

She could also have 'Nam flashbacks if she's not careful. If she dreams she's in a shootout, someone tapping on her shoulder could have nasty results. I'd also suspect that she'd have combat reflexes: a practical joke involving a balloon that goes "BANG!" could send her diving for cover. 

Do note that Mireille will, in all likelyhood, be just as useless as her when it comes to how to behave at a high-school bash. (On the other hand, she could chaperone her and schmooze with everyone, having a hard time remembering that she shouldn't seduce everyone there.) 

At said party, there's a good chance Kirika could get in touch with all the other "shy losers" who don't know what to say at parties. 

The Soldat principal can get in pretty easily. Observe sydneyzilla (I think that's how you spell it) and her stories. After all, the guy can be a Soldat and have no idea who Kirika is. 

Hmm... 

I like the silly quote. Let's modify the situation a bit. 

Kirika's pretty recticient normally. You might have to make her a little drunk (or put her in company of someone's she's fantastic good friends with) before she'd slip up like this. 

I think a good lead in would be a sort of joking/egging each other on session. E.g. "Woah, Kirika! You look HAWT in that dress! And those shades! Evil, man! You an assassin or something?" "Yes." "*pause*" "I...I mean I'm cosplaying Golgo 13." "Ah." 

There's probably a "Pet Care Club" Kirika could join. 

Oh, and the Art Club, of course. Lots of quiet people there. And when the teacher says "Paint your innermost feelings," results should be funny. 

I encourage you to loot and pillage Azumanga Daioh for your own nefarious ends. 

Quote: 
I can't believe I actually wrote this... 
 


You know, I'm starting to suspect I'm the only person here without lethal fighting skills...and that Faceless is KGB. 

It suddenly occurs to me that Kirika spends a lot of time staring out into space. So, why not put her in the astronomy club? You get a nice combination of night-owls, nerds, and dreamers, mixed in with loners and such. They'd go on about the beauty of the stars, and she'd see how black and empty it all is, yadda yadda. 

And now, a message from the Department of Maniacal Laughter: 

Schools usually have photo-ID cards, yes? 

Mwah ah ha ha ha! 

Consider also the fate of every person who's ever featured in a framed photograph in Noir, combined with the horror that is school picture day...
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:55 pm    Post subject:     

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Oh my gosh, both of you have such great ideas for this story, probably better than anything I can come with. How about I let y'all write it?  But really, I've have to save this thread so I can read it at my leisure. 

Section 8, for some reason PTSD never crossed my mind until you said something about 'Nam flashbacks. That would be so like Kirika. And what or who is sydneyzilla and what does she have t owith Soldat principals? Just curious. 

And while Mireilld might be useless at telling Kirika how to behave at a high school bash, she is at least a little more social than Kirika, and can primp her up, which gives her the perfect excuse to splurge on her.  

Funny you mentioned Azumanga Daioh, because when Faceless suggested introducing some weird classmates I though Tomo. 

I also want to focus on M and K's relationship, especially since I might want to submit it to Shoujoai.com, and because Mireille needs *siome* screen time. 

Oh and Faceless, I've seen Kirika's bare arms and legs, and even her naked back in episode 25 and it all looks flawless. I think the only places scars would be then are either the front of her torso or her butt..l.and what are the chances of all her scars being concentrated there? Not to mention she wears those spaghetti straps tops to bed and we don't see and scars there, either. On the other hand, one scar (from when Altena shot her) might be enough to arouse suspicion. 

I'm thinking about the main things that send Kirika down the drain are the Soldats principla and her friends finding out, piece by piece, that Kirika's a killer.
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Section_8
Kind Mother


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 238
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Funny you mentioned Azumanga Daioh, because when Faceless suggested introducing some weird classmates I though Tomo.  


For more on the possibilities of Noir and Azumanga, see chapter 4 of Noir: Contracts (increments the "pimp mah stories" meter by one): 

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1958111/4/ 

Also look at DBSomner's Azumanga Royale. Yeep. 

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1943589/1/ 

Quote: 
And what or who is sydneyzilla and what does she have t owith Soldat principals? Just curious. 
 


The Sydneyeliza (misspelled earlier) is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very forum. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth. 

She also posts here and writes nifty fanfiction. Cool, eh? 

The following story of hers features a Soldat principal and much ado about guns: 

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1441863/1/ 

Quote: 
On the other hand, one scar (from when Altena shot her) might be enough to arouse suspicion. 
 


It'd be a doozy, too, since she's got two slugs embedded there and all. Then again, she might have a bio-boosted healing factor. Guyyyyyyvaaaah![/quote]
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Rab
n00b


Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 4

 Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:07 am    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
Oh and Faceless, I've seen Kirika's bare arms and legs, and even her naked back in episode 25 and it all looks flawless. I think the only places scars would be then are either the front of her torso or her butt..l.and what are the chances of all her scars being concentrated there? Not to mention she wears those spaghetti straps tops to bed and we don't see and scars there, either. On the other hand, one scar (from when Altena shot her) might be enough to arouse suspicion. 


I'm sorry if this isn't what you meant, but are you saying that because that there are no visible scars shown in the series, she doesn't have any at all? Or that she just doesn't have any in the places that you mentioned? I think that would it be almost impossible for her not to have any, in a visible place or not. It seems to me that usually in shows/movies that when people are shown with a scar, that scar is some sort of distinguishing feature as opposed to multiple scars all over the body. 

Then again, a lot of scars are hard to see unless you're looking for them. 

I'm not sure if what I'm saying is clear, but basically, just because there are none shown doesn't mean she doesn't have any. 

Again, I'm sorry if read what you were saying wrong. 

I also apologize for the overuse of the word scar here. I can't think of another word that sounds right here.  
 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:55 am    Post subject:    

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I think the reason we don't often see scars in the series is the same reason we don't see blood most of the time. It would be yet another thing to animate. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Nun Fighter


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:28 am    Post subject:    

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::nods:: I agree with Faceless and Rab. Just because Kirika doesn't have visibly animated scars doesn't mean they aren't there - she took shots to both arms in episodes 8 and 9, which must have left scars, but we don't see them from there on in or, indeed, any evidence of bullet wounds or holes at the time. Someone who's trained as hard as Kirika is going to have quite a few scars, but because they're not integral to the plot they're not shown.
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Disclaimer: This post, nor its preceding or following posts, do not advocate cruelty to Kirika. Always keep your Kirika indoors when lighting fireworks. Respect your Kirika, and it will live a long and happy life. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:16 am    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
Oh my gosh, both of you have such great ideas for this story, probably better than anything I can come with. How about I let y'all write it?  


If you mean me, I'm just a lurker here, I'm not good at writing and stuff.  
 
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Section_8
Kind Mother


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 238
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:04 pm    Post subject:    

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Makeup and/or plastic surgery are also possiibilities. Not good for stealth when you walk around looking like a map of downtown Moscow. 

Alternatively, Kirika could have so many scars that they've morphed together to form one great transcedental meta-scar. 

Or she was really darn good in training, and all her scars are mental. 

Again, she could heal damn fast.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:29 pm    Post subject:     

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Or she has a thing for long-sleeved shirts or jackets, which would be so convenient for hiding scars since school starts in the fall and France is further north than Georgia, USA, so I imagine it'll be cold. 

Unless she has to wear a uniform and nothing over it. 

Also, I started rewatching Noir, and in episode 1, Kirika is bandaging Mireille's arm and Mireille asks her if she trained as a nurse, which suggests Kirika has some expertise in treating wounds. Maybe there are few or no scars because she treats the majority of her wounds well. 

Oh, I forgot one more thing: Kirika would totally own at gym, which would make someone notice and push her to join a team.
_________________
Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 752
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:34 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
Unless she has to wear a uniform and nothing over it. 

To my knowledge, school uniforms are very much a thing of the past over here. 

===============================================================================

[Was Kirika lying about losing her memory?]
 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 2
(10/20/03 3:03 pm)
Reply  Was Kirika lying about losing her memory?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Now that I have everyone's attention...  

I have a theory about Kirika's supposed memory loss that is probably somewhat different from the popular opinion. 

In a nutshell, I think Kirika repressed her memories of killing Mireille's family. Soldats had no direct hand in this.

Now to make my case...

w
a
r
n
i
n
g

s
p
o
i
l
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s

First, what exactly did Kirika forget? At first she is presented as the typical amnesiac, wondering who she is etc. but this was all misdirection, because we find out that she never actually knew who she is, in fact nobody else does, either! She does know that she is Noir, and she knows Mireille, and that the pocket watch is hers. 

The most important thing she seems to have forgotten is apparently that she offed Mireille's family. At least this seems to be the memory brought back by the "final guidance" shock therapy to return her memory, or rather confront her with her repressed guilt.

But had she really forgotten? The exchange with Chloe in episode 19 suggests that Kirika does know subconsciously but doesn't want to face what she did:

"I knew it all along.. Yeah.. I should've known.. Just that.. A part of me wanted to believe that I was normal in some way.. Just.. that.. I didn't want to know.."

So if Kirika knew it all along, why did she seek out Mireille? I think that right from the start she wanted desperately to be killed by Mireille. The real give-away for me was in episode 2 when Kirika hands the knife to Mireille. First rule of knife-fighting is you never ever hand someone a knife. To make this point very clear, Don Salvatore and Silvana later show the consequences of disregarding this rule.

Now for my theory of what made Kirika develop this sudden feeling of guilt that drove her to repress a large part of her memories? I think a clue can be found in the happy family picture seen in Kirika's house in episode 1. About 6 month before the events in this episode, we know Kirika lived there for some time with the Yumuras, and judging from this picture, she was happier then than we ever see her after. I think this period may have been the first time Kirika experienced something like a family life. When she was left alone, she may have realized for the first time how much she really took away from Mireille by killing her family.

I think what happened next was that Kirika had some Soldat minders in Japan, who noticed the change in her demeanor and decided to eliminate her as useless. While this was later referred to as a trial, nobody seemed to try to kill Mireille or Chloe at the time, only Kirika. I think this was not unrelated to the fact that from the three candidates, only Kirika had emotional issues about killing. At this point Mireille-Chloe must seem to be a much more promising pairing...

I think this amnesia was not wanted by anyone, from the start Chloe seems to be trying to trigger Kirika's memory. This is not so apparent at first because she doesn't volunteer much information, but that is because she probably realizes just telling will not bring back Kirika's memory. When she tries in episode 19, Kirika is almost hysteric, yelling for her to stop.

Altena too, in episode 24, indicates Kirikas condition is not really desired: "Poor child.. Don't worry. If you live here with us, you'll surely return to normal."

So much for my interpretation. What does everyone else think?

The only indication that Soldats would have a hand in erasing Kirika's memory is when in episode 3, Mireille says something like: "the enemy, the ones that took your memory" but there is really no reason to believe she knows what she is talking about...

(Concerning the Dux group, I think they had standing orders to eliminate anyone taking the Noir name, and were not explicitely sent against our duo.)


 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 6
(10/21/03 12:27 pm)
Reply  Chloe's jealousy
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 It's not very cool to be the first to reply to myself, but anyway...

I forgot to mention how my theory affects Chloe's attitude towards Mireille. I think at some point, Chloe and Kirika were very close, but Kirika has repressed all memories of this, and as a result no longer returns Chloe's affection. (The alternative explanation, that Chloe is just a nutcase Kirika-stalker I find not as interesting)

After episode 21 it seems Chloe expected Kirika to return to her normal, pre-amnesia self. She constantly reaches out to connect with Kirika, who has however closed off her heart at that time. It looks so painful I can't help feeling sorry for poor Chloe. 

Now if Chloe is aware that Kirika pushing her away is a result of Kirika repressing their shared memories caused by Kirika's feelings of guilt towards Mireille, it could go a long way in explaining Chloe's violent reaction towards Mireille. Of course Mireille showing up at the Manor with the probable intent to kill Kirika didn't help...




 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 7
(10/21/03 1:20 pm)
Reply  pictures
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 It seems I cant get the image include to work, so I'll just give links:

Here's the happy family:
www.stormpages.com/tomoyo/ep1/family.jpg

And here's Kirika's "Kill me" cooking:
www.stormpages.com/tomoyo/ep2/16.jpg
and what normally happens when you do this:
www.stormpages.com/tomoyo/ep8/25.jpg


 
The Last Mslugger
Soldat
Posts: 9
(10/21/03 4:28 pm)
Reply 
  re
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 the links don't work 
 
Rossinc
Soldat
Posts: 26
(10/22/03 9:15 am)
Reply  Re: re
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 I'd agree that Kirika had repressed the memories of killing Mirielle's family, but the result is the same whether it was induced by a physical trauma, drugs, hypnosis, or psycotic reasons. At the begining of the series, she basically dosen't remember what returns to her later in the show. Obivously she retains her memories in her sub-concious, otherwise they would have never resurfaced, but I don't think she was simply falsely playing out the amnesia bit. It seems she is truly wanting to find the truth, and sorta knows it's bad news, to the point of even accepting death (which is an indication that she knows it's bad news) at the hands of Mirielle. Could she have suspected that she was the killer of Mirielle's family at this time (ep 1)? Possibly a suspiscion, but I don't think she really knows at this point.

I think the reference Kirika makes to "knowing all along..." is that she knew she wasn't a normal kid, that she was a cold-blooded killer who doesn't feel sad at murdering, when she knows she should. Not that she knew all along that she was the killer of Mirielle's family.

As for the Dux gang, we see Altena writing a letter late in ep 2, and I think that is the request to the Dux gang to assasinate Noir in Ep 3. Dux & co. are not apprised of the identiy of Noir, just the contract for Noir itself. I think this is the first true trial of the Noir ritual. Altena's the one who put the Dux hit on Noir.

I think the earlier attempt at Kirika in the bamboo forrest was an attempted pre-emtive strike by Altena's oposition (i.e. council) to stop the grand return.

As for the knife, well they are cooking...it's not too outrageous to ask for a knife, considering that Mirielle could just shoot her when she's sleeping. Frankly Kirika is in far less danger handing Mirielle a kinfe than Mirielle is with Kirika holding a patato peeler. That girl is dangerous with anything in her hands.

I do think you have some pretty good backing for Kirika's memories not being taken away by the Soldats, but being a reaction to her act of murder.

Ross


 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 8
(10/22/03 12:22 pm)
Reply  sorry
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 Sorry for the links, I thought they would work, I'll have to refer to www.flyingteacup.com/noir/ then.

I don't quite agree that it doesn't matter why Kirika lost her memory. To me anyway it's fun to come up with sensible rationalizations for the sloppy writing in the series... 

I didn't mean to say Kirika is pretending the amnesia (that was just to have a catchy title for the topic). I'm trying to come up with a theory that accounts for the following facts: 

- less than 6 months ago, Kirika had all her memories, probably her gun and I assume also the pocket watch she robbed from Mireille's dad's corpse, but was happy enough with them to laugh in that family picture. She must have known the connection between the watch and Mireille, how else could she have remembered it?

- from episode 1 onward, she is angsty to the point of suicidal, very protective of Mireille for some reason and happy at the prospect that Mireille will kill her, and she has selective memory loss relating to all aspects of the Corsica job.

I disagree a bit that she truly wants the full truth. In ep. 16 she begs Chloe to tell her who she is (Chloe doesn't know, unfortunately) but when Chloe tells her about her past in ep. 19 Kirika begs her to stop. I think this points to her repressing those memories, or at least being selective of what she wants to now.

Did it take until episode 19 for Kirika to find out she wasn't a normal kid? And why would Mireille the murderer-for-cash care about Kirika being a killer?

Kirika: "I didn't want to know.. But now I know.. Please.. Mireille.. Please don't look at me like that.."

Does this sound like she is talking about being a normal kid?

Anyway, about the knife, I don't know if Mireille was testing Kirika or just being stupid, but by Kirika doing the simple grip reversal, it is clear to me the creators wanted us to think about that knife as a weapon. In the screengrab I failed to post, Kirika offers the knife to Mireille aiming straight at her own heart. And Mireille looks at her as if she grew a second head before accepting the knife. But this is far from the only clue that Kirika wants Mireille to kill her from the start, and probably sought her out for that very reason...

Could Mireille really kill Kirika in her sleep if Kirika didn't want her to? I'm not so sure. 

After much thought and re-watching and reading the scripts, I don't believe anymore that Altena was ordering everything that happened. This is going to be long and I planned to do it as a separate topic, but this is as good an occasion as any:

The first impression raised by the series' portrayal of Altena is that she is controlling everything from the shadows. But I think this is untrue. I think Altena didn't really control anything, but has complete faith in Destiny as described in the Langon manuscript and always keeps her cool, which gives the impression that she is in control when in fact she is not.

The reasons I came to this conclusions are mainly the following:

-Altena doesn't have the ability: Altena lives in some remote ruins without electricity, phone, internet connection or satellite dish. For the duration of the series we see her check on the weather and her grapes, write in her diary, play solitary chess, read a book, walk around with candles and pray. By clever cuts we are led to believe this is somehow connected with other events where this is not realistically possible.

-When she can control something, she doesn't: If there is something Altena could control completely, it would be Chloe. But she never seems to give Chloe the kind of specific instructions that one imagines a puppeteer in the shadows would have to make. For the first contact, she basically says: "it's up to you what to do". The next episode Chloe's written orders are some vague reference to wind and grapes, on which Chloe decides to kill a high-ranking Soldats member, send some assassins to their deaths, and visit for tea. And so on.

-Many things happen that Altena could not influence and probably did not foresee. At any point Mireille or Kirika could have been killed, Chloe repeatedly acts on her own initiative, the other factions do their own thing. No way could she influence that Mireille would find Kirika's letter or be contacted by Grpaul, but without these events she would not have gone to the Manor, or if she did it would have been to kill Kirika. Or that Mireille would not immediately recognize Kirika as her family's killer - she was there after all - and shoot her. And so on. 

Of course all of this is speculation and your's is as good as mine. 
 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 10
(10/22/03 1:03 pm)
Reply  afterthought
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 I'm aware of the theory that Kirika was given a very specific mind-restructuring by Soldats as part of an elaborate set-up to make her miserable. My thoughts on this are:

-We are never shown any clue that Soldats possesses such an ability. It would have come in very handy in lots of other situations where it was not used, such as eliminating all dissent within Soldats. Instead they seem to rely on killing as the universal solution to any problem. Of course absence of evidence is not proof... (Soldats is Genom, they are all replicants, that is why nobody bleeds... It's only hydraulics fluid!  )

-If such a technology did exist, it would more likely have been used to turn Kirika directly into the desired miserable end product. 

-It is a "supernatural" explanation bordering on the level of "it was all a bad dream by character X", that has to be accepted on faith but raises more questions than explain anything.

 
Virany  
Mercenary of Soldat
Posts: 89
(10/22/03 1:16 pm)
Reply 
  Re: afterthought
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Soldats is Genom, they are all replicants, that is why nobody bleeds... It's only hydraulics fluid!
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Boomers! ^.^ :: runs in fear ::  

 
Moderato cantabile...

Fronti nulla fides... Vita luna. 
~ * ~
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

 
Rossinc
Soldat
Posts: 27
(10/23/03 5:49 am)
Reply  Re: afterthought
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 From both your topic and some of your post, it did seem that you were proposing that Kirika was "lying about losing her memory" (your own words) and just wanted Mirielle to kill her because she was quilty about what she did. 


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- less than 6 months ago, Kirika had all her memories, probably her gun and I assume also the pocket watch she robbed from Mireille's dad's corpse, but was happy enough with them to laugh in that family picture. She must have known the connection between the watch and Mireille, how else could she have remembered it?
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I agree that she knows there's a link with Mirielle and the watch. The picture could have been a simple cover picture taken with two soldats (her cover parents) and there is no confirmation that any of them actually spent time together. Actually, Mirielle tells the tale of the Yumurras, then states it was "all a lie", and that everything was faked for the school records. There's no way to tell if Kirika actually spent more than the ten seconds it took to take the picture with her cover parents, or if she actually spent a full half-year and actually had a great time.


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- from episode 1 onward, she is angsty to the point of suicidal, very protective of Mireille for some reason and happy at the prospect that Mireille will kill her, and she has selective memory loss relating to all aspects of the Corsica job.
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Yes indeed, but her memory loss should be viewed as "partial" and not "selective". She doesn't conciously select which memories to have and which to not have. 


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I disagree a bit that she truly wants the full truth. In ep. 16 she begs Chloe to tell her who she is (Chloe doesn't know, unfortunately) but when Chloe tells her about her past in ep. 19 Kirika begs her to stop. I think this points to her repressing those memories, or at least being selective of what she wants to now.
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I agree, I think that she wants the truth to begin with, but once it turns out to be bad news, she doesn't. It's an evolution of her desires, rather than a set-fast wish for the total truth from begining to end. 

At first she wants to know who she is, why she can't feel sad about killing, etc. I think that she probably has a big suspiscion that it's not good news, and she accepts the condtion of death to find out. Once she's spent time with Mirielle, she begins to have some doubts that her prediction of gloom and doom were warranted, but as later events take place, she realizes that she was right from the begining.


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Kirika: "I didn't want to know.. But now I know.. Please.. Mireille.. Please don't look at me like that.."
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Here Kirika is indeed talking about her hope that she had been normal because the rest goes: "I just wanted to believe that a normal me existed somewhere...that's all. That's all it was" 

When Chloe tells Kirika that she could always kill without hesitation or remorse, combined with her already admitted lack of sadness at killing, Kirika recognizes that she didn't have a normal childhood, and that something is indeed wrong with her. Suspiscion was there all along, she just finally accepts it in ep 19.

Mirielle may or may not be able to kill a sleeping Kirika, but Kirika could most certainly kill a sleeping person without batting an eye. Kirika may have wished Mirielle to kill her, though it's doubtful that she wanted her to do it in the kitchen right there. Why? They were no closer to the truth. Dying then would have done no more than dying earlier. Kirika wants some answers at least first. Also, with Kirika's ability, she can hand Mirielle a knife and still be fairly confident in being able to take Mirielle if she needed to. 

I think Mirielle looked at Kirika oddly, because when she did the reversal, it showed that Kirika could handle a knife well and she had already shown she could handle a gun and kill with bare hands earlier. Mirielle is simply taking stock of the fact that Kirika may be better than she is at the killing business.

I do agree that from the begining Kirika has a "death wish" of some sort. I don't think it comes so much from the single act of killing Mirielle's family, as it comes from the fact that she could have done it so easily.

I agree also that Altena isn't totally controlling events. In fact there are very few she actually initiates, and even less she infulences. Even then she has to use a tool to influence the balance (eg. sending Chloe to Taiwan). For the most part, Altena is indeed just letting the flow of events take place. 
 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 11
(10/23/03 9:52 am)
Reply  Kirika lying?
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 I indeed wrote "was Kirika lying?", note the question mark. It was not my intention to offend Kirika fans or to blacken her name (if you will pardon the pun). I wanted to look at the possibility as an alternative "reductio at absurdum" way to consider Kirika's amnesia.

I feel that Kirika's amnesia was not as straightforward as it was at first presented. For one thing it turns out she never knew some of the things she at first seems to have forgotten (like who she is). 

The second, and probably more important issue I'm trying to tackle is, what kind of person was Kirika before she lost her memory? I find it hard to believe that losing her memory would completely change her personality. She must have been at least sufficiently functional to go to school for months and we see her interact with some classmates in episode 1. And there is the picture, which might be faked though I don't really see why they would bother, in which Kirika is not just "smiling when she has to" but looks actually happy to me. Some may think she was like "dark Kirika" then but I don't think that was a viable long-term personality, and Altena also didn't seem to consider this her 'normal' self.

To resolve this dilemma I came up with the theory that maybe what triggered Kirika's 'fugue' was perhaps *remembering* what she did in Corsica, or at least realizing its import on a new level. I admit it sounds a bit strange to get amnesia from remembering something.

I didn't mean to say Kirika conciously knows she killed Mireille's folks, what I think is that her guilt became so crushing that not only did she suffer memory loss from it, but that even through the memory loss she kept a subconcious longing to be killed by Mireille. I find this somehow more appealing than that Kirika was just a cold bitch who needed a blow to the head to develop some semblance of conscience...

Regarding her 'parents', that the records were falsified is in fact not proof that they could not be her biological parents. But I agree that they were probably just Soldats supervisors just like the two shadows of uncle Claude, and presumably Mireille's contacts in Paris as well. I do think they stayed with her for some time though, and that the picture was "real". It doesn't look like something worth the effort to fake.

About Kirika wanting to die from the start I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. The grip reversal with the kitchen knife was I think not that impressive to justify Mireille's amazement (though I never get the cool sound effect when I do it) but we don't know how much the creators knew about knife handling so it's quite possible I'm reading more into it than I should. But even then when Mireille says basically "once I know about my family secret I'll kill you", "I'm looking forward to it" is not what I would normally expect as an answer. "I'd like to see you try" or "screw the pilgrimage, I'll find out by myself BLAM" seem more likely. As for not wanting to die before finding the answers; even disregarding ep 7 there are many instances where Kirika seems to court death unnecessarily. 

What did you mean with Kirika's death wish coming from "she could have done it so easily", I didn't get what you were trying to say.

Anyway thanks for the reply, this is interesting.


 
Rossinc
Soldat
Posts: 29
(10/23/03 10:55 am)
Reply  Re: Kirika lying?
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 I basically agree with all the general things you're saying. Especially that the Soldats are not the direct cause of her amnesia by brainwashing or whatever, but that it was more a reaction of her to what she had done. They caused it by making her do things in the process of training to become Noir, but it wasn't like they gave her some drug, or some Vulcan mindmeld to erase her memory. 

Altena does say that Kirika had the hardest route to becoming Noir, but it's not mentioned if that route was because of the amnesia, or the cause of it. It seems to play out that Kirika is the strongest of the three, which is true in the technical sense, but emotionally she's a train wreck. 


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What did you mean with Kirika's death wish coming from "she could have done it so easily", I didn't get what you were trying to say.
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I was agreeing with you that Kirika has what amounts to a death wish, to be killed by Mirielle. I think it wasn't so much the act of murder (in this case Mirielle's family) itself that sent her over the edge as it was the fact that she could murder so easily and not feel sadness at it. It could have been any hit she had to make, it just happened (by accident or design) to be Mirielle's folks. Kirika's lack of remorse is what gets her started down the path of questioning her own "normalcy". 

I don't think it was so much what she took from Mirielle, as much as what was missing inside her when she did it, that caused her to snap. The lack of something inside, be it morals or conciense, drove her to repress her memories and wish for a more "normal" Kirika. That may have easily been formed during the six month period as you say, the story's just a little too sketchy on pre ep 1 details. 

Ross

 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 14
(10/23/03 11:33 am)
Reply  Agreed
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 I agree that we can't know what drove Kirika over the edge. I'm not saying it must be because of Mireille's folks - we simply don't know. 

What I tried to do is see if I could construct a theory using only elements from within the series, that could explain the events. As you say it could have been any other hit, but we don't know of any other hits or if there were in fact other hits, just as we don't know about Soldats mindmeld technology. Also she doesn't go seek out the family members of any other victim. And she only has one watch in her collection...  (what is it with stealing the watches of people you kill? Didn't Mireille take her uncle's watch too?)

The problem I have to fit your theory in my attempted reconstruction is that too much time elapsed between Kirika's last known hit (in Corsica) and her being bothered by not being sad about it. So I have to invent some circumstance that somehow makes this old news relevant to her again... I guess I was not very successful at it.

 
Riesz Fenrir
Soldat
Posts: 27
(10/25/03 5:23 am)
Reply 
  Re: Agreed
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 A little too late to step into the fray, but I also go with the "trauma caused Kirika to repress her memories" theory, as opposed to Soldats' brainwashing. See my essay on it here: trueshini.tripod.com/kirika-amnesia.htm

I'm curious as to this part:


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Altena does say that Kirika had the hardest route to becoming Noir,
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I don't remember this. I have a mixture of Soldats and BakaMX fansubs and I've not yet got all the DVDs (though I'll have them shortly), so what episode was this in?




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Protector of the Quiet Ones.....
~*~
....because you *know* it's always us. 
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Rossinc
Soldat
Posts: 31
(10/25/03 11:36 am)
Reply  Re: Agreed
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 I may be mistaken about it, Riesz Fenrir, so I'll just have to go back and watch the series all over again. Darn! 


 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 18
(10/25/03 12:57 pm)
Reply  Re: Agreed
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 Your theory seems to go quite a bit further than just repressing her memories, with alternate personalities and all that... It's a bit complicated to me, all these personalities... Which personality do you think Kirika had just prior to losing her memory? It can't be her 'normal' one, as you say that is the one from after the amnesia. I don't think 'dark Kirika' would make any friends in school. Base type? What could trigger the creation of the new 'normal' personality if she already had 2 personalities to deal with stuff?

And doesn't dark Kirika first appear in ep 22 when Margaret is killed? How come we get no flashbacks when 'darky' appears? Wouldn't she have different memories? Or maybe that is an entirely new personality? Or do you consider this just a very pissed off version of the same personality that begged Mireille to kill her? That doesn't seem quite right...


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Altena does say that Kirika had the hardest route to becoming Noir,
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I don't remember either, but it sounds like something she might have said... 

Edited by: FacelessMinion at: 10/25/03 1:07 pm
 
Rossinc
Soldat
Posts: 32
(10/25/03 1:50 pm)
Reply  Re: Agreed
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 Maybe Kirika's three shadows are representative of multiple personalities. I'm also begining to lean towards a multiple personality disorder for a couple of reasons. While running quickly through the disks in an abortive effort to find the saying I attributed to Altena, I found some other hints at multiple personalities. 

Gee, yet more details to look at and form a theory on. 

And no, I didn't find anything like what I thought she said. I could have sworn it was there, but I appear....WRONG! 

Ross 
 
Riesz Fenrir
Soldat
Posts: 28
(10/27/03 7:18 am)
Reply 
  Re: Agreed
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Which personality do you think Kirika had just prior to losing her memory? It can't be her 'normal' one, as you say that is the one from after the amnesia. I don't think 'dark Kirika' would make any friends in school.
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Kirika is going to school *after* she wakes up from her amnesia, so the Kirika that goes to school is "normal" Kirika. She remembers going to school in episode 19 with no triggers or provocation - she also remembers it in ep. 4 and I think ep. 7. We see her going to school just before she meets Mireille. The way I see it, she woke up from her amnesiac coma and went to school possibly for a few weeks before gathering enough info to contact Mireille (professional assassins of her calibre are kinda hard to track down).


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Base type? What could trigger the creation of the new 'normal' personality if she already had 2 personalities to deal with stuff?
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Her base, childhood personality (the one she was born with) couldn't cope with killing as a child (and probably a lot of other sh*t she went through), so Dark Kirika was created. This supressed her original personality. Her original personality was so traumatised it wasn't really going to come forward anymore, and Dark Kirika can't interact with the world normally and isn't really Kirika, she's a "front" to protect the real Kirika and help her cope with the trauma of killing, so she needs a new one to balance between the two. If she just reverted back to her base personality and then sought out Mireille, she'd break down and switch to Dark Kirika every time she had to kill - not very stable. Dark Kirika on the other hand doesn't really care about Kirika's past, Kirika cares about Kirika's past, so something in her had her shut down and put a combination of the two together - the ability to kill, and the humanity to interact with Mireille and want to seek out her past.


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And doesn't dark Kirika first appear in ep 22 when Margaret is killed? How come we get no flashbacks when 'darky' appears? Wouldn't she have different memories?
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I think I theorised about this in the essay, but I'm not sure - I don't think episode 22's Dark Kirika is necessarily the original Dark Kirika, since she doesn't have all her memories. But let's face it, having your original personality shattered and replaced twice by subsequent versions of yourself is going to f*** up your ability to remember things from your past anyway. Poor Kirika. ;_; 


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Protector of the Quiet Ones.....
~*~
....because you *know* it's always us. 
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Edited by: Riesz Fenrir at: 10/27/03 7:21 am
 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 19
(10/28/03 7:50 am)
Reply  re
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 Unfortunately I don't have the background needed to judge other people's disorders, so I can't fairly comment on your theory.  

Even so I find it hard to believe Kirika only started going to school after losing her memory. I can see how it would fit the theory but it seems highly unlikely that her first schoolday just happened to coincide with her memory loss. Her having a student ID must mean she either attended this school already or had just been enrolled. If she wouldn't have been missed at this school, why did she go at all? It would have been very awkward; "Ok class, please welcome this new student. Yumura-san, why don't you tell us something about yourself?" "... I... I don't know... I am Noir... and I found this watch... and this pistol... and I killed some guys this morning..."

So while I agree Kirika went to school after her amnesia, I think she probably also did before. Too bad all her previous studying was for nothing...  Unless this was shared memory between personalities?

In case she went to school before, her pre-amnesia personality(ies) must have at least been somewhat socially functional? Is it likely she spent her entire life as 'darky' without ever needing a normal personality? Japanese school life brings out normality in kids? 

Is it possible for a personality to experience "amnesia" that is not related to switching between personalities? Or do we have to assume 'normal' Kirika did not exist at all prior to the 'amnesia'?

Anyway I assume real disorders are rarely perfect textbook cases so we can probably get away with some artistic licence in our interpretations...

 
The Dark Prince 86
Soldat
Posts: 23
(10/28/03 11:16 pm)
Reply 
  Re: re
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 I believe Kirika's amnesia is self-induced in wanting to have a normal life, but she realized it would be impossible to. She subconsciously knew she was Noir, and sought out Mireille to fulfill her promise to Odetto. Chloe I think looked up to the older Kirika, and modeled herself after her. Kirika I believe had passive indifference to Chloe judging by her actions in flash-backs. Chloe was not a nutcase, just someone who looked up to someone who didn't really care too much for her overtly, though Kirika did like her because of her resemblence, her other self, but her ties to Mireille caused Chloe to resent the overt display of care for Mireille by Kirika. Afterall, Chloe did save Kirika from Mireille, only to have to fight Kirika protecting Mireille. Chloe, unaware of the promise was very confused and didn't understand, and I doubt Altena raised Chloe with much contact with other people or much anger management. That's my long winded take on this. 
"You may not believe this, but I prefer bullying the weak." ~Spaurh Aronn Saicspath Nimh Laitpanr Painaich
 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 20
(10/29/03 3:17 am)
Reply  re:
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 There was a promise? I remember Odette making a request but I don't remember Kirika promising anything...

I still think that at first Kirika has to protect Mireille because she wants Mireille to kill her. I don't really see how her amnesiac personality helped her become more "normal" as she just continues killing people... I cling to my theory of guilt over killing the Bouquets.

Which flashbacks are you referring to? I think there were in fact no flashbacks at all showing any interaction between Kirika and Chloe (a shame really), so I'm not sure what you mean by Kirika being indifferent to Chloe? The only flashback I can think of that they are both in is the Corsica one where Kirika is understandably occupied with other matters...

The final fight was tragic. I think Kirika said it best: "You should not have come here". By going to the Manor Mireille made it inevitable that one of them had to die (which is btw why I think Altena didn't want Mireille to come), unless they somehow unanimously rejected the whole Noir thing and went for tea. I don't think any of them, but especially Chloe, were capable of that at the start of the fight. Mireille came to either fulfill her promise or to kill Chloe (or die trying). Kirika could die or defend herself by killing Mireille. Chloe would preferably watch Kirika kill Mireille, or she could kill Mireille herself (Chloe probably expected the former. Not that she liked it, I think she looked honestly upset when Kirika pointed her gun at Mireille...) There seemed to be no other options.

We first see Kirika vs Mireille, where Mireille gives up her initial advantage of surprise, then Kirika gets the bead on Mireille but doesn't follow through for some reason, after which Mireille gains the advantage by disarming Kirika but doesn't seem about to conclude. Then Chloe, who so far must have watched without interfering, makes the situation equal again by disarming Mireille. She could have killed Mireille easily at that moment but for some reason left her unharmed. However Kirika seems still unable to continue. This starts the Mireille-Chloe fight in which Chloe seems to have the advantage but curiously takes her time with non-letal leg shots, kicking Mireille in the face and making speeches on history etc until she comes to the conclusion that it must be destiny that Mireille has to die. Kirika then wakes up and interferes by disarming Chloe (yet not killing her), and asking her to stop (ie to reject Noir and all she ever believed in). Chloe then disarms Kirika (again instead of killing her) and engages her in a furious but rather pointless fight that neither really wants to win. Chloe finally forces a conclusion by running towards Mireille (though she could have thrown the dagger instead).

I don't think Chloe resented so much Kirika's affection for Mireille, as that, in the Noir logic, one of them HAD to die there, but by the end of the fight Kirika rejected this logic, hence Noir, and by extension Chloe who couldn't think of herself as not being part of "shin no Noir". Kirika didn't just reject Chloe's affection, far worse, she rejected what Chloe saw as the cornerstone of her very identity...

 
The Dark Prince 86
Soldat
Posts: 33
(10/29/03 6:03 pm)
Reply 
  Re: re:
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 The fact she followed through with a dying, or soon to be killed woman's request, I think is a common theme. Kirika always works to protect Mireille until she finally becomes the much more interesting and fun dark Kirika.

Kirika's indifference to Chloe while at the manor is commonly showed, and certainly with their flashback in Corsica Chloe seemed to be having all the fun. Chloe mentions they only lived together for awhile. Obviously this had a profound importance to Chloe, who wanted to be like Kirika, but again, Kirika's lack of reaction seems to me either she doesn't care about her time in the manor or is indifferent or both.

I think Chloe did not want to see Mireille and Kirika fight, but once the situation occurred, she knew someone had to die, and she resolved herself that it was going to be Mireille. I believe my previous point stands the fact Chloe in her mind saved Kirika only have Kirika protect Mireille caused more confusion for her.

If there is one thing about Chloe, is that she takes her time. She had no reason to be in any hurry to eliminate Mirille. Mireille was weak, ineffectual, and no match for her. She could have easily spouted her speech and killed her if Kirika had not intervened. Chloe seemingly never hurries to kill unless she has to. She took her time with the NATO general and the former Stasi agent. She also took her time with the corrupt Judge and with the Chinese assassin whose name escapes me. Chloe has established a pattern which is wholly consistent of how she dealt with Mireille. 
"You may not believe this, but I prefer bullying the weak." ~Spaurh Aronn Saicspath Nimh Laitpanr Painaich
 

FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 24
(10/31/03 1:47 am)
Reply  re
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Kirika's indifference to Chloe while at the manor is commonly showed, and certainly with their flashback in Corsica Chloe seemed to be having all the fun. Chloe mentions they only lived together for awhile. Obviously this had a profound importance to Chloe, who wanted to be like Kirika, but again, Kirika's lack of reaction seems to me either she doesn't care about her time in the manor or is indifferent or both.
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I think Kirika simply doesn't remember yet her time together with Chloe. But of course I have no proof of this, unless we accept the absence of flashbacks as proof of some kind. I like to think so as it makes the tragedy more tragic... I can't really imagine something Kirika could have done in the Corsica flashback to show she wasn't indifferent about Chloe that would not have spoilt the scene.

 
The Dark Prince 86
Soldat
Posts: 42
(11/1/03 12:29 am)
Reply 
  Re: re
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 A lie of omission is still a lie... so to speak. I believe in this case the omission of any such flash back is also purposeful. Kirika's time in Corsica and with Mireille are more valuable to her then her time with Chloe. I think this makes it all the more tragic. It was such a needless death and yet, totally unavoidable when Mireille intervened.

The true question is why did Mireille not kill Altena outright. She had every motive to do so. 
"You may not believe this, but I prefer bullying the weak." ~Spaurh Aronn Saicspath Nimh Laitpanr Painaich
 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 25
(11/1/03 3:20 am)
Reply  Re: re
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 I have theorized on the reasons for Mireille not killing Altena here:

forums.oyasumi.nu/viewtopic.php?t=166

As an aside, I've seen mentioned sometimes that Altena and/or Noir are responsible for the death of innocents. I don't remember sseing any innocents in the series, with the possible exception of Mireille's brother and maybe the family in ep 2... So, is killing the guilty still a "sin"? 
 
Rossinc
Soldat
Posts: 38
(11/1/03 9:29 am)
Reply  Re: Was Kirika lying about losing her memory?
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Quote:
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I think Kirika simply doesn't remember yet her time together with Chloe. But of course I have no proof of this, unless we accept the absence of flashbacks as proof of some kind. I like to think so as it makes the tragedy more tragic... I can't really imagine something Kirika could have done in the Corsica flashback to show she wasn't indifferent about Chloe that would not have spoilt the scene.
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I think that Chloe placed much more importance on a relationship with Kirika (i.e. the "stalker Chloe" syndrome) than Kirika did on Chloe. It's logical that Kirika may not remember as vividly something that wasn't important to her. Sort of like you see an old high school classmate that you barely remember to find out she had a serious crush on you (and usually she's now a total knockout but married ) You might not remember having said "hi" to her in the hallway, but she may have cherished the event.

The real tragedy is that Kirika couldn't remember because it wasn't memorable to her, but Chloe rants about how Kirika's actions influenced her to be an assasin and later in the knife fight how it should have been her with Kirika instead of Mirielle. 

Ross 
 
The Dark Prince 86
Soldat
Posts: 44
(11/1/03 8:19 pm)
Reply 
  Re: Was Kirika lying about losing her memory?
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 I believe it is wrong to unjudiciously take the life of another. The state has the power of the sword and disinterested agents of the state can execute people under circumstances. As a freelance assassins, they may kill unlikeable people who deserve death, but does that mean they have the right to pass judgement upon them. I doubt it. 
"You may not believe this, but I prefer bullying the weak." ~Spaurh Aronn Saicspath Nimh Laitpanr Painaich
 
FacelessMinion
Soldat
Posts: 26
(11/2/03 1:43 am)
Reply  Re: Was Kirika lying about losing her memory?
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Quote:
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The real tragedy is that Kirika couldn't remember because it wasn't memorable to her
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Kirika doesn't remember a lot of things for reasons that are rather unclear. She doesn't even remember Altena, but I doubt Altena was not memorable enough to her. 

I suppose it's a matter of personal preference.

 
The Dark Prince 86
Soldat
Posts: 46
(11/2/03 6:08 pm)
Reply 
  Re: Was Kirika lying about losing her memory?
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 She does remember Altena handing her that Beretta. I just don't think she spent enough time at the manor for it to become all that important to her. 
"You may not believe this, but I prefer bullying the weak." ~Spaurh Aronn Saicspath Nimh Laitpanr Painaich
 
================================================================================

[How to erase one's life in minutes]
Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:54 pm    Post subject: How to erase one's life in minutes   

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On the Mireille True Noir thread I said I bought Faceless' repression theory except I have one problem with it. How can someone repress their whole life all at once and not realize it? I can understand how it can haapen if Kirika repressed one or two events so quickly, but how do you get to the point where you just wake up and suddenly realize you don't know anything about yourself? Surely she would've known what she was doing or something?
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WotanAnubis
Pezzant


Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 28

 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject:    

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Answer: you probably can't. Unless, of course, you suffer a bit of severe brain damage, but that probably didn't happen to Kirika. 

Then again, I'm no psychiatrist so what do I know?
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject:    

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Since she woke up with memory loss, she could have forgotten everything while she slept, perhaps? 

And if you are not paying attention, why would you notice? For example, I might well completely forget everything that happened yesterday but wouldn't notice unless something made me wonder what happened yesterday. I could easily forget a whole year and not realise it until I had to specifically think about all past years and notice one was missing. 
 
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WotanAnubis
Pezzant


Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 28

 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
And if you are not paying attention, why would you notice? For example, I might well completely forget everything that happened yesterday but wouldn't notice unless something made me wonder what happened yesterday. I could easily forget a whole year and not realise it until I had to specifically think about all past years and notice one was missing. 

... 

So, like, if you're not careful you might just blink one day and wonder "What was my name yesterday?" 
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Moridin
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Tucson
 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:56 pm    Post subject:    

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Well, I kind of implied this with my previous post, that drugs could be used to aid in such an endeavor. Putting that aside, you should never underestimate the apptitude and power of the human mind. Such a power might certainly include the ability to conclusively seperate from certain memories. If we look at actual examples, we find that severe memory loss is usually only brought on by extreme head trauma. Some people forget their names and everything about themselves but I've heard of a case where a person in a car accident lost about 14 months of their memory. This included the fact that they had met a woman, dated and married. 
Selective memory loss can also occur, such as in the case of rape victims and child molestations. Can you have the power to forget everything, overnight? Can you simply say before you go to bed, "I will forget everything." It may be possible. Just look at the case of people with multiple personalities. Each personality exists independently of the others and might not even have knowledge of their existence. Examples have been recorded where people would change from one personality to the next and their brainwaves would be completely altered.
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fixed and crazy, Aphid Attraction 
Carve my name in my face, to recognize 
Such a pheromone cult to terrorize 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:37 am    Post subject:    

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It is possible to lose your memory: it is called amnesia. I read once that people who suffer amnesia from psychological causes often "accidentally" lose any object that might identify them, and "accidentally" end up in a place far from their homes when they lose their memory. This suggests that at some level they indeed know damn well what they are doing... Do not underestimate the power of self-delusion. Whenever you repress anything, you must know what you are doing - you just refuse to acknowledge it. Like people who end up in one abusive relationship after another, what are the odds of this happening by chance? Yet they will deny that they want to be abused. And even if you ARE aware of what you are doing, that does not mean you can just stop doing it. 
 
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noirci
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 67
Location: BC, Canada
 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:51 am    Post subject:    

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Well, let me throw in my 2 bits here and say I don't buy the self-inflicted amnesia theory either. 

The entire basis of the series is that it turns out both Kirika and Mireille had been living lives that were entirely pre-planned by Altena and her group in order to groom the final Noir pair. 

The "Trials" were intended to not only test their skill, but also their bond and loyalty to each other. 

Kirika's amnesia was necessary in order to set up the ultimate test of the strength of that bond, by finally revealing to BOTH of them that Kirika was the killer of Mireille's family. And much to Altena's delight, it held firm. 

How would this test be possible without not only the initial amnesia, but still having planted enough info for her to contact Mireille? And it also needed to be instantly reversible for both a very specific event in Kirika's early life, as well as specific instructions on how to reach the Manor. And Chloe knew *exactly* how to do it. 

There are too many indicators that show Kirika's memories were taken from her by the Soldats (Altena's Clan), and nothing I can see shown in the series that hints at otherwise. 
 
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Mirage
Nun Fighter


Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 177
Location: Southampton, UK
 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:51 am    Post subject:    

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Random thought -- I don't know if this has been discussed, but do you think Kirika could have suffered from a concussion? It's possible to get memory loss from concussion, but the memories do come back eventually. Someone close to me has experienced this, and it is really weird and frightening to witness. 
Or maybe Kirika had a combination of all these things? Consussion, repression, drugs, random amnesia... who knows? ^_^;
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Maybe the three of us can have tea together again? 
 
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Blue-Jackal
Nun Fighter


Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 205
Location: Isle of Wight, UK
 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:01 am    Post subject:    

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noirci wrote: 
There are too many indicators that show Kirika's memories were taken from her by the Soldats (Altena's Clan), and nothing I can see shown in the series that hints at otherwise. 


I'd have to agree with you here  

I had the impresion that Kirika was raised pretty much as you say, then had her memory wiped/surpressed in some way we never find out. 

I assumed she was then 'planted' in the location she woke up in...
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"The name's Mireille Bouqeut. That's Bouqeut....B.U.C.K.E.T!"  
 
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Moridin
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Tucson
 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject:    

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Yes I have heard the term amnesia. Thank you Captain Obvious . For the record I don't think she erased her own memory, I was just trying to point out that it might be possible. That WAS the point of this topic wasn't it? To answer how it MIGHT be possible. There is still alot of skepticism about amnesia. I have heard of a case where someone showed up in my hometown claiming to have no memory and to not even remember there name. The authorities discovered that this person was just a criminal trying to escape their crime. Their self-delusion wasn't that deep because they ended up admitting everything and getting arrested. 

As for Kirika, erasing her own memories, no way. She had no reason to erase her own memories. In her previous state she didn't have any reason to. She was just like Chloe with even less compassion. She was completely brainwashed. She didn't feel guilt for what she did, until AFTER she lost her memory. Of course that can't be proven because the show doesn't cover that area and we are only left to speculate. From what we have seen however, she instantly started feeling that something was wrong when she started to kill. That she was unaffected, was clearly not normal. She was only able to realize this because her brainwashing had been removed. Her fighting and survival conditioning however, were too deeply ingrained into her muscle memory to ever be erased. She was still missing something as Noir, in order to fill your glass you must empty it first. She had to become a tabula rasa, her coldness could then be written over with something more human. 

That's why she was put together with Mireille. In order to find something deeper, you sometimes have to be open and vulnerable. Her memory loss did the job perfectly. That's why she was able to create the bond to begin with. Her killer self would never have been able to bond with ANYONE. It was too closed and too guarded. Like a lost little puppy, there was no way that Mireille could resist her charms. It was only a matter of time. What kind of person in their right mind would knowingly approach an assassin for a "pilgrimage to the past." No, if you were smart you would stay the hell away from them. I think this naivete created an even greater attraction.
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Hard to say what caught my attention 
fixed and crazy, Aphid Attraction 
Carve my name in my face, to recognize 
Such a pheromone cult to terrorize 
 
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Janus
Forum Minion


Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 107
Location: Somewhere in the Southwestern U.S.A.
 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:27 pm    Post subject: >>nods>>   

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I agree with Blue-J about Kirika being "planted", it would explain some of Kirika's uneasiness about being home alone in Japan and Kirika's statement of facing her past and not running away which I think was a reference to her past actions including leaving Mireille in PAris.
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"All good deeds are punished." 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:28 pm    Post subject:    

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Moridin wrote: 

As for Kirika, erasing her own memories, no way. She had no reason to erase her own memories. In her previous state she didn't have any reason to.  


I saw plenty of reason in episode 19, first when Chloe tells Kirika what's she's always been and Kirika yells fotr her to stop, then at the end when Kirika thinks (I'm paraphrasing here) "I should've known..I just wanted to be normal...that's all I wanted."
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:46 pm    Post subject:    

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Kirika didn't repress her memories herself. There are many hints during the series. The strongest is the final guidance. You will find no way how this could have worked without outside influence. 
Quote: 
I saw plenty of reason in episode 19, first when Chloe tells Kirika what's she's always been and Kirika yells fotr her to stop, then at the end when Kirika thinks (I'm paraphrasing here) "I should've known..I just wanted to be normal...that's all I wanted." 

That's not a proof for self repressed memories. Partly it shows the self-denial of Kirika we see all through the show, and that she probably did through all her life. And not to forget the special circumstances of ep. 19. K & M are close to get the book and so to reveal Kirikas past. There was an agreement at the begining, and Mireille remembered her. Kirika loves Mireille, is happy in her presence. The book is lost, partly a luck for Kirika. So Kirika yelling "Stop" at Chloe who starts to reveal her past is a normal reaction.
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gordok
Grape


Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 8
Location: San Diego, CA
 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject:    

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One of my earliest theories (upon seeing episode 18 ) was that Kirika did not have memory loss. . .she only thought she did. 

I.e., being planted at age 16 in a Japanese school. . .and now having interacted with normal kids her age. . .she realized/decided that what she remembered of her own childhood could not be true. (After all, what kid has that kind of childhood?) "Obviously" [she would conclude], someone must have come along and erased the memories of her real childhood. 

Has this theory already been discredited elsewhere? 
 
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Section_8
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 364
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:24 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Has this theory already been discredited elsewhere? 


Oddly enough, I don't think so, actually. 

Which raises another point. Technically, Kirika could forget everything in one go if (and this is a rather big if) she were somehow convinced (through sleep-hypnosis, drugs, percussive instruments, voodoo magic, or bad anime) that she had forgotten everything. 

If someone, say, did a Force Persuade on her that "You remember nothing, you are Noir," then she might wake up with that thought formost in her head. If she tried to remember anything, this suggestion would whack her with a metaphorical stick and say, "NO! Remember nothing!" Since the actual memories would still be there, they could leak out over time, or produce "creepy moments," like, "Hey, I feel as if I've done this before, yet somehow I don't recall why I'm crying right now."
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 


===============================================================================

[Teaching Kirika Yuumura]

Section 8

 
Not bad. I'm not a huge reader of yuri, so I can't give you much of a genre-based critique, but here's what I see. 



You've managed to draw readers into Kirika's mind. The whole story has the sort of naieve curiousity about love and romance that someone in Kirika's postion would have, combined with her somewhat cold, logical way of thinking through things. 

Example: 
"What she learned from the popular girls was that it was the ultimate expression of intimacy between two people who wanted each other's body, which finally put a word to what Kirika had been wanting to do with Mireille. She also learned that both partners had to be naked." 

A textbook, nigh-scientific definition is probably exactly what Kirika would puzzle out from all the innuendo she listened into. The "both partners had to be naked" bit is hilarious; it's tacked on, almost like a footnote. 

Phsyical descriptions are really important in romance stories, as is character. When you describe "how absolutely gorgeous Mireille's naked body was," it'd be a good idea to talk about exactly what bits of Mireille's naked body Kirika found absolutely gorgeous. The way her hair spills over her shoulders just so? The sharp cold blue of her eyes, like a gust of arctic wind? Feel free to use the words "lush," "volumptuous," and (heaven forbid) "throbbing" here if you must. 

Translated through Kirika's imagination, of course, this might end up in more technical terms. Say, observations on musculature, stance, old injuries, etc. 

Also... 

Example: 
Kirika clung to Mireille and breathed heavily as Mireille kept pushing her toward the edge, then tightened her grip and buried her face in Mireille's neck as she came for the very first time. 

I'd love to hear more about what exactly this experience is. "Came for the first time" doesn't tell me much about what Kirika was feeling here. What sensations were involved? What was she thinking? And can I be arrested for making these inquiries? 

You've captured Mireille's playful streak pretty well. 

Example: 
"Mireille chuckled. "No wonder you like ice cream so much. You were having dirty little fantasies about me while eating it, weren't you?"" 

(Oh, and thanks for picking up on the subtext in that scene.) 

I also found "languid" an excellent way of describing how Mireille was lounging about. Very cat-like, and exactly how I imagine a person like her would relax: completely, totally, and whenever possible (i.e. between dodging bullets). 

Moo moo, 
Section 8
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 625
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:26 am    Post subject:    

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Like he said. If this is your first time  then congratulations. Mireille worrying about dinner at the end seemed a bit unrealistic though... and shouldn't they take a shower before going out after all that exercise?  

If it were me, I would have stayed home and made dinner together (a couple that can make a successful dinner together without arguing must be true love) and groceries could be put to creative uses... but then there would be no end to the story  

Calling Kirika Mireille's "lover" felt somehow not quite right to me, but I'm not native english so don't mind me. I liked the idea of sending Kirika back to school, you could perhaps have briefly explained that, I was slightly confused, when you wrote school I immediately thought of her school in Japan. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 149
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: Teaching Kirika Yuumura [yuri!]   

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I haven't had time to read it yet, but I've always wanted to read a fanfic with Mireille teaching Kirika the facts of life. Praise to you, my friend.    
 
Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 275
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:47 am    Post subject: Fight scenes?   

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Short but sweet: 

I'm useless at fight scenes. Any tips on writing a good one?
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Disclaimer: This post, nor its preceding or following posts, do not advocate cruelty to Kirika. Always keep your Kirika indoors when lighting fireworks. Respect your Kirika, and it will live a long and happy life. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 971
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:30 am    Post subject:    

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I'm not a writer, but I don't like reading long, pointless and boring fight scenes. It's not because your characters have to struggle through a huge army of faceless minions that the reader should suffer the same fate, if you see what I mean. There are these very dull action-packed stories that read like watching someone else's videogame. Bo-ring. Also, if you have to describe the action, please give me some decent info on the setting so I can imagine it, and then respect that setting. Not a ROOM with a DOOR in a COMPLEX where 5000 ENEMIES are all shooting at me simultaneously. It's not because you can see it that I can, too... Tell me what the characters feel, don't give me an autopsy of every victim. Only use poetry if you are decent at it... And did I mention to make sure there is a POINT? I mean, other than you don't reach your wordcount. 

I don't know if this might help, but in case you want to add some realism: 
http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/anatomy.htm 
 
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Nightwish
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Finrando
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:29 am    Post subject:    

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*prints article* Wise words of FacelessMinion.. No, that is _not_ sarcasm. 
I'm writer, and I have problem with fighting scenes. 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 149
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 5:02 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
It's not because your characters have to struggle through a huge army of faceless minions that the reader should suffer the same fate, if you see what I mean. 


Oh, so now you're a clone...and a clone...and a clone... 
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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Section_8
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 357
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:39 pm    Post subject:    

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Kinda sick and not thinking straight here, but here's what I got. Feel free to ask questions. 

They are among the most challenging scenes to write, actually. 

The blokes who write the Max Bolan series know how to do it, so if you're ever bored, take a look at one of them. 

Most fight scenes you do should take about 30 seconds real-time at the most. An extended firefight really sucks the life out of the excitment. 

In terms of reading time, a good fight scene will probably take about 3 minutes read-time. You want intense levels of detail, lots of vivid sounds and imagery. Really put the reader in the middle of the fight. 

Fights are viceral, emotional scenes that are really all about rhythm and setting up an adrenaline rush. They're built around one or two dominant emotional states (e.g. fear and excitement). Word length and sentence rhythm determine the pace of the fight. 

Word use and literary techniques make or break a good fight. If you've used "punched" three times this fight, you've "punched" the reader unconcious. What kind of punch? A backhand? A sickening crack? A chop? To where? A blind hit? To the nose? 

Don't try to do a Burly-Brawl; go for more of a skirmish. Description takes read-time, and too much action will take too much description. 

I usually choreograph my fight scenes very carefully, including one or five money shots/"OMGWTFBBQ" moments in each. Often, I'll draw a map of the scene so I can tell where the characters are. 

Decide which moments you want to highlight, and which ones you want to breeze over quickly. If you've got a really cool finishing move, crank up the description to create a slow-motion effect. If, on the other hand, you wnat something simple (e.g. "Bond runs to other side of room"), go simple. 

Consider camera angle. If you describe the fight from an omniscient perspective, things get, well, boring. It becomes more like a play-by-play than anything. For an example of this, see the warg and Moiria fights in Lord of the Rings (written version). You get to establish what everyone's doing, but don't really connect with any of the characters. Do you want to show this fight from a particular character's view? How can you stage this part of the action for maximum effect? 

Every action scene should be followed by one or two non-action scenes. Don't be Jerry Bruckenheimer; save the pyro effects for when you need them (unless, of course, you WANT to numb your readers with a shock-and-awe campaign of gratuitous violence). 

Pay attention to anatomy and physics. Unless you're going for comedy, the actions your characaters perform should be reasonably believable in the context of your story. This often means some research. 

Last, consider your point. Fights take up valuable screen-time; what role does this one play in the overall story? What mood do you want to establish? How will this affect the characters later on? What events and developments must happen in this scene to enable later ones? 

Now some examples. 

[DANGER! Violence ahead!] 

[Stop salivating, Sprite!] 

Let's look at Shigan's Shattered Shards (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1805966/1/), an alternate-universe fic with Kirika as a vampire. 

In this scene, Shiggy's introducing Kirika. His main goal: establish a mood of horror, and really have the readers understand what vampiric blood hunger means. 

Roll the clip! 

"A wail of pain and horror echoed between the walls when an edge cut into flesh, severing skin, veins and bodily tissue in a snappish wet sound. The woman screamed, and screamed like never before as pain shot through her body. Her otherwise pretty face twisted into a mask of horror at the touch of cold metal plunged into her arm. Red, hot liquid ran down her limbs, soaking her clothes and releasing a coppery smell into the air. The whore, which she indeed was, whimpered and kicked out, sending herself tumbling to the pavement while clutching her arm in cramped movements." 

What works here? 

First, Shigan's paced his entire chapter so that this scene has been looming in the background for some time. He knows that half the effect of a good fight is the lead-up to it. He introduced the character of Katie early on, added the men who were going to beat her up, and spent much time setting up an atmosphere of darkness, decay, death, and sweet dry-ice fog effects. 

He also kept most of the sensory description down to a minimum. He keeps the reader (for the most part) in Kirika's head, and since she's intentionally trying to ignore her surroundings, this makes sense. 

Notice the amount of detail here. Not only does the knife cut Katie, it does so sloooowly and painfully because of how long he's dragged out the description. 

If he'd said, "The knife cut her," the scene would take a second of read-time; the reader would think, "'Kay, knife goes 'whiff' flexh go cut, next?" Not very exciting, but if Shigan didn't want to emphasize this part of the fight (e.g. if this was knife-wound #279 in a samurai battle), a bland description would rush his readers past this boring bit. 

Instead, the "edge cut into flesh, severing skin, veins and bodily tissue in a snappish wet sound." 

EWWWW! 

The long, polysyllabic words slow down the reader; the knife, in the mind's eye, draaaaaags itself through the flesh. You can actually see the skin, then the veins, then the muscle, split around the blade one after the other. 

He's also given his readers exact, precise description that suggets action. "Snappish wet sound"= we see tendrils of flesh and bits going whip-whip, spraying blood. And the blood is not "blood" but "red, hot liquid"; the description forces the readers to dwell on it, slows its drip earthwards, and enhances the horror of it all. And it has a "coppery smell"; the use of smell reminds the reader of the animalistic quality to this scene. 

All this creates a mood of terror, disgust, and excitement. 

If you read the rest of the fight, you see that Shigg-man's glued the reader's POV to Katie, the dying prostitute. Why? Kirika's in blood-hunt mode here; she doesn't so much think as she does act. From her point of view, all she sees are prey to eat. Moreover, she knows exactly what she's doing. Katie, on the other hand, doesn't. All she can do is watch as some freaky goth-girl goes all celerity on these guys and leaves them as broken heaps. 

Example 2: chapter 5 of Shopping Mission. 

This entire chapter lasts about 1 minute real time, possibly even 2. But it takes ten minutes read time. 

I had two goals in this scene: get Greaser beaten up (to set up the next fight), establish comedic interplay between Chloe and Mario. 

To do this, I dragged out the lead-up to the fight as long as possible. Just to let Mario (upon which the perspective is fixed) stew. 

I also use wordplay to create some implied action. 

"Greasers knife hummed in a semi-circle. Get lost, kid, he growled, or get cut! He brandished his knife under her ear. 

She glanced at it, sidelong. 

It leapt back, parried. 

He gave a start." 

I could've said, "Greaser threatened her with a knife. She repelled it with a look." That wouldn't have conveyed the impression I wanted. I wanted to show how Chloe was so freakin' evil that even a casual look from her was so sharp it could deflect steel. Hence, the knife is "parried" by her look. Perhaps you edited in a "schwing!" sound effect of steel-on-steel? 

"Her eyes flashed. 

Please, for the love of God, dont kill anyone! begged Mario. 

Way past beggin time, Mario, said Greaser. 

I wasnt talking to you! 

The girl glanced at him, and nodded, imperceptibly." 

Again, more action/comedic timing here, which also explains the rest of the chapter. Why aren't these guys dead after Chloe attacked them? Because the clerk asked her not to kill anyone, of course. 

Now, the actual fight. 

"The Ripper twitched his trigger-finger. 

The girl blurred. 

The huge man suddenly doubled over. Mario got a glimpse of his face, twisted in pain, before the girl, now crouched with her heel in his crotch, chopped both hands behind her back, connecting with his arms. Two sticks snapped. His arms went limp. The gun fell. She caught it in mid-air behind her back. The man realized he should be screaming in pain at the exact moment its butt smashed into his jaw, shattering it. He toppled over, and crashed into one of the racks. Tortilla chips and salsa smashed and scattered everywhere." 

"Blurred" followed by long, precise description = "bullet-time" effect. This scene might actually have too many motions in it; generally, two or three main motions are good enough for each moment or "beat" in a fight. Think of it in terms of camera angles; how long do you want to show this scene from this angle? 

Notice the bit about the tortillas and salsa? That was done to meet my two goals of coolness and humour. The chips go "crunch", hinting at the bone-breaking moves. The "chunky salsa" suggests blood and what the person's been reduced to. The ludicrious sight of chips and dip flying everywhere makes the whole scene farcical. 

The What the hell?! from Greaser speeds up time again. 

When Chloe " whirled in a swirl of green fabric," the long, rhyming sounds of whirled and swirled slow down the action, so we get a nice John-Woo effect. Then "the shotgun roared, blasting the man through the stores front window," as time suddenly returns. 

"The girl rested the shotgun against the counter, and cocked an eyebrow in his direction." 

Here again, we have multi-purpose description. Choose your words carefully in terms of innuendo. Here, we have Chloe putting down the gun, yet "cocking" an eyebrow in her direction. I.e. _she_ is the loaded weapon. You get the visual of her eyebrow moving, and the sound-effect of a "ka-click" subconciously edited it. This, again, also adds to the humour factor (she's totally non-plussed about this). 

"Two hands grabbed his arm and redirected the knife into his left bicep. He howled. An elbow drove into his nose. He fell on his rear." 

Here, I wanted to make the action move in a blink of the eye. I've kept the description to a minimum (no snapping tendons here), and used short, snappy sentences (for, yes, the snapping of tendons). 

For more good examples of action, read Swordskill's Liberai Fatali. (Notice how her set-piece fights take up a whole chapter, and that each is followed by several character-building sections.) 

That's it for now. Post here if you have any more questions. 

Signed, 

Prof. Section Eight.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 971
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:03 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
For more good examples of action, read Swordskill's Liberai Fatali. (Notice how her set-piece fights take up a whole chapter, and that each is followed by several character-building sections.)  

Honestly, I thought some of SwordSkill's fight scenes were too long, too vague to remain exiting. There is an incredibly dragged-out sequence where Mireille and Kirika storm some kind of "castle", but we never learn if this is a Cinderella castle, Versailles castle, Samurai castle, Crac des chevaliers castle, or motte-and-bailey castle. Inside the castle there is a succession of totally nondescript Doom-like ROOMS an CORRIDORS with multitudes of nondescript ENEMIES, with logistical problems glossed over (do the bad guys eat their fallen to continue to be able to attack K&M? Do they actually all live in this castle, or are they those instant-enemies-just-add-water?), and there is even a BOSS character that is going to face Mireille with a sword, of all things. 

Somewhat later in her story the characters unwittingly stumbled into Brogdingnag, where ventilation ducts are wide enough to allow people to overtake each other or dodge machinegun fire, and an elevator shaft can accomodate a full-scale war. All this in the back room of the computer lab. The point of all this carnage to the story remains unclear, except perhaps to help establish that Kirika is a little confused. 

I love SwordSkill's character stories, and the way Kirika is turning all evil in Liberi is really scary, but I just wasn't gripped by her action sequences... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 275
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:36 am    Post subject:    

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Just to clarify and in case it helps, I'm writing altverse Kirika one-on-three. It's a replica of the "Kirika vs. the three Soldats in the forest" battle that she flashes back to in ep. 1, but instead of guns Kirika's got an axe and the Soldats have.... I was thinking standard RPG-hero-lookin' broadswords, with the lead Soldat maybe having something fancier. So it's not a big battle or an important battle in terms of the story per se, but it highlights how the two parts of her nature are duelling: the natural trained killer and the natural born child.
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Disclaimer: This post, nor its preceding or following posts, do not advocate cruelty to Kirika. Always keep your Kirika indoors when lighting fireworks. Respect your Kirika, and it will live a long and happy life. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 971
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:49 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
I was thinking standard RPG-hero-lookin' broadswords, with the lead Soldat maybe having something fancier. 

I would avoid "standard RPG-hero-lookin' broadswords" as description in the story. ^_^; Soldats don't show much individuality in weapons choice, a nice sword and shield for everyone should suffice, I think. Do mention what's on their shields, though. I'll leave the description of their fur loincloths to your discretion... Don't forget to describe the scenery, weather, time of day, etc. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 971
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:56 am    Post subject:    

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I don't think you would do this, but what also annoys me about some fanfics is the authors seem to think that writing anything about a cool character will automatically be cool. Chloe glares. Wheee! Name recognition doesn't compensate for uninspired writing... 

Consider also the reader who doesn't know the series. For example, in section_8's grocery story, almost every sentence contributes to establishing that Chloe is cool, the goons are comic relief, and Mario is a self-insert  
 
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Section_8
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 357
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:37 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Consider also the reader who doesn't know the series. For example, in section_8's grocery story, almost every sentence contributes to establishing that Chloe is cool, the goons are comic relief, and Mario is a self-insert  


Yes, do consider your audience, if you would. It may be fanfiction, but woulnd't it be nice for people other than those obsessed persons on oyasumi.nu to actually get this kind of stuff? 

To take the cool glare example: what's cool about the glare? Are the eyes narrowed to gun-slits? Does he/she shoot a look that richocchets (I can never spell that word) off the target? Or maybe the person's eyes flash "ting!" (joke copywrite Terry Pratchett). 

Swordskill's fights were kinda long taken in isolation. In the context of the whole story, I think it's reasonably balanced. I'm willing to forgive some of the sparse atmospheric description she puts in because she's writing a strongly character-driven story; the more non-descript the background, the brighter the characters shine against it. As for the notoriously Doom-like and video-gamish nature of that one battle scene, it's funny that you should mention that, considering what happens in the next chapter... 

Hey, wait a minute... 

Quote: 
and Mario is a self-insert  


OI! KHEEL YO' ARSE! KHEEL YOO AN' MAKKA YU DYE! 

(Makes note to describe Mr. Pork as "an utterly faceless minion.") 

Quote: 
Just to clarify and in case it helps, I'm writing altverse Kirika one-on-three. It's a replica of the "Kirika vs. the three Soldats in the forest" battle that she flashes back to in ep. 1, but instead of guns Kirika's got an axe and the Soldats have.... I was thinking standard RPG-hero-lookin' broadswords, with the lead Soldat maybe having something fancier. So it's not a big battle or an important battle in terms of the story per se, but it highlights how the two parts of her nature are duelling: the natural trained killer and the natural born child. 


Hmm... 

Still don't see Kirika as an axewoman; more of a ninja backstabber. Axes also kinda suck when fighting in close-quarters (e.g. a forest). High risk of axe sticking in big bamboo things or trees. 

I've heard it suggested that a really strong shortbow (designed for maximum impact at short range) would make a decent forest weapon, as would some form of spikey dueling gauntlets.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 971
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:11 am    Post subject:    

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Section_8 wrote: 
the more non-descript the background, the brighter the characters shine against it.  

I don't really believe that's true, but then you would consider any part of the background that is wort mentioning as a character, right? 
Quote: 
As for the notoriously Doom-like and video-gamish nature of that one battle scene, it's funny that you should mention that, considering what happens in the next chapter... 

I'm not saying the scene was not intentionally written this way (although the supposedly real fight in the next chapter is rather similar) or that it absolutely didn't work in the story, I just wouldn't hold it up as template to pattern all future Noir fanfic fight scenes on. 
Quote: 
Quote: 
and Mario is a self-insert  

OI! KHEEL YO' ARSE! KHEEL YOO AN' MAKKA YU DYE!  

He wasn"t?  Are you sure? 
Quote: 
Axes also kinda suck when fighting in close-quarters (e.g. a forest). High risk of axe sticking in big bamboo things or trees.  

If you forgot your dagger at home, by all means walk around those patches of dense undergrowth where you couldn't swing your axe to your heart's content. Axes are cool for hooking shields or legs (and bashing skulls, of course). 
Quote: 
I've heard it suggested that a really strong shortbow (designed for maximum impact at short range) would make a decent forest weapon, as would some form of spikey dueling gauntlets.  

I wouldn't take that bow into that brush either, and it would be useless at close quarters (no defensive capabilities). And Kirika is a berserk here, not an elf. 
Spikey gauntlets? Not much used outside of fiction. Maybe knife and fork, instead... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 275
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:59 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
I would avoid "standard RPG-hero-lookin' broadswords" as description in the story. ^_^; 


No fear, this is a serious fic.  

Quote: 
Soldats don't show much individuality in weapons choice, a nice sword and shield for everyone should suffice, I think. 


S'what I was thinking, although being goons the first wave might not even get shields. (Do we think those first 'dats in the forest had bullet-proof armour?) 

Quote: 
Do mention what's on their shields, though. 


I'm putting them in leather armour with a certain two-maidens symbol on the front..... 

Quote: 
I'll leave the description of their fur loincloths to your discretion... 


Ugh, no loincloths here. That's only for those as cute and not-to-mention-FEMALE as Kirika.  

Quote: 
Don't forget to describe the scenery, weather, time of day, etc. 


Taken into account. It's a snowy wasteland/clearing, so there will be heavy blizzard and slippy ground to take into account.
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Disclaimer: This post, nor its preceding or following posts, do not advocate cruelty to Kirika. Always keep your Kirika indoors when lighting fireworks. Respect your Kirika, and it will live a long and happy life. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 971
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:17 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
being goons the first wave might not even get shields.  

That's harsh. It's just a bit of plywood. If they can afford clothes, let alone armour and a sword, it wouldn't do to have them without shields. And "sword and shield" is almost one weapon. If you want to be stingy, arm them with staves... it would explain why they prefer the clearing for the fight (assuming it was their choice). That should give Kirika a serious warm-up session. 
Quote: 
I'm putting them in leather armour with a certain two-maidens symbol on the front.....  
Lamellar or scales? Or brigandine? Boiled and laquered perhaps? Or shaped leather plate? Or just a rawhide coat? Which century is this happening, or is it a purely fantasy setting? 

Maybe you can cheat and recount the fight from the viewpoint of one of the Soldats, he can tell how they were trudging through the snow for days tracking their target, how much his job sucks, especially with his family jewels flapping in the blizzard because the evil authoress cruelly deprived them of their fur loincloths, and then suddenly they are faced with their prey, except that she doesn't look like prey much <insert drooly description of Kirika, ending with how economically she swings that cute little axe... I said axe!>. Cut to Kirika wiping her axe(!) clean amid the red-flecked snow. 

Notice how the entire nasty fight was left undescribed... and everyone thinks you did it for dramatic effect.  
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 275
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:11 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
That's harsh. It's just a bit of plywood. If they can afford clothes, let alone armour and a sword, it wouldn't do to have them without shields. And "sword and shield" is almost one weapon. If you want to be stingy, arm them with staves... it would explain why they prefer the clearing for the fight (assuming it was their choice). That should give Kirika a serious warm-up session. 


Ooh, staves. Sounds good. But I know even less about how those work... ;_; 

Quote: 
Lamellar or scales? Or brigandine? Boiled and laquered perhaps? Or shaped leather plate? Or just a rawhide coat? Which century is this happening, or is it a purely fantasy setting? 


Purely fantasy. Dark Ages White Wolf mixed with D&D. 

Quote: 
Maybe you can cheat and recount the fight from the viewpoint of one of the Soldats, he can tell how they were trudging through the snow for days tracking their target, how much his job sucks, especially with his family jewels flapping in the blizzard because the evil authoress cruelly deprived them of their fur loincloths, and then suddenly they are faced with their prey, except that she doesn't look like prey much <insert drooly description of Kirika, ending with how economically she swings that cute little axe... I said axe!>. Cut to Kirika wiping her axe(!) clean amid the red-flecked snow. 

Notice how the entire nasty fight was left undescribed... and everyone thinks you did it for dramatic effect.  


...Sorry, I lost you after "swings her cute little ass".    

That would be cool, except: 

1) it's a character-defining moment for *Kirika*, I want to describe her from the inside; 
2) each chapter is from a specific character's POV, so I have to write Kirika.
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Disclaimer: This post, nor its preceding or following posts, do not advocate cruelty to Kirika. Always keep your Kirika indoors when lighting fireworks. Respect your Kirika, and it will live a long and happy life. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 971
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:18 am    Post subject:    

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Since the goon won't be much use in continuing his narrative, Kirika could take over by way of flashback. There have to be flashbacks! You can describe the same fight as many times as you want with flashbacks...  

Telling an entire chapter in Kirika-voiceover-style may be hard, considering Kirika is rather terse most of the time. I wonder if her thought-patterns are not almost entirely non-verbal, which would be a serious challenge to put into words. 

The staff will have the range advantage over the axe, they will mostly make powerful strikes to the crunchy bits (skull, wrists, shoulders, knees) and spear-like thrusts to the squishy bits (face, gut). Both will be near impossible to block and difficult to deflect with a shorter weapon. They will be able to negate much of Kirika's nifty axe tricks by just changing grip on the staff, and can adapt to almost any range by sliding the staff through their hands. When they switch from quarter-staff to half-staff techniques, either end AND the middle can be used for attack or defense. Anyone who was not Kirika would be royally screwed facing a couple of decent staff-fighters, particularly if they knew how to collaborate... They might not even consider bringing a second wave. To be really unfair they would have a few archers trying to tag her from the trees while she is occupied with the staffers. 
 
================================

Kirika Survives High School

Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 124
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject: Kirika Survives High School    

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Whew! I finally finished the first chapter! Go me.  So, tell me what y'all think of it and if it has enough shoujo-ai stuff to submit to Shoujoai.com. 


And Faceless...oops.  ..I made your character too outgoing; I read about you being too shy to throw a party only after I finished the chapter. 

http://www.anycities.com/bulmafox/foxandfanfic/highschool/highschool1.html
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 928
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject:    

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No problem, I like this Guy character  If it were exactly like me, the story would be too boring for me to read... 

Some thoughts: 

- I don't know how common lockers are these days, but we never had any at school. We carried big bags around... 

- in my days, gym class was separated by gender for archaic concepts about propriety, not because the guys class was significantly tougher or anything. You could work in some more evidence that the gym teacher is a complete nutcase to explain why Kirika was not simply directed to the right class... 

- I think nr 8 wanted to be Vache, not Voche? And reading about him calling anyone weird was... strange  

- It is not customary to introduce yourself as monsieur so-and-so. 

- I'm sure you know, but Guy is short for Guillaume, that oh so common Norman name. Like Guillaume le conquerant, whom the English for some reason call William the conqueror... Perhaps mention it somewhere so your readers don't think it's Guy as in 'that guy'... 

I like it. The beginning is a little rough but it gets better once shool actually started. Make sure to give Kirika plenty of challenges; the more she has to work to gain acceptance and fit in, the harder you can hit her afterwards... (I feel so evil for planning that - but I'll get my punishment in the story...) 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 928
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:50 pm    Post subject:    

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I was already thinking about that party I'm throwing at my house... but the story is in Paris (is it?) so I don't know for sure how to organise it. Paris is densely populated so the house is probably not that big, but there may be a garden, and in early september the weather should allow us to play outside. 

Hm, let's say around 30 - 50 people will actually show up, so we'd need about 15 crates of beer, half that amount of coke and lemonade. A big tub filled with ice to throw all the drinks in. The more savvy people will bring a crate or two to help me out so I won't have to ruin myself completely on drinks. People won't get lunch at school because it's wednesday, so provide food. Probably frenched fried potatoes. Perhaps hot dogs or burgers. Carrots, celery stalks and the like. Whatever anyone else brings. Several large bags of peanuts, chips, nachos and stuff as backup. Ice-cream with home-grown strawberries at the end of the afternoon. Tea and coffee. Provide a large tent and backup entertainment in case it rains. Someone to play DJ. Someone to take pictures. It's a weekday so we can't make it too late. Make sure everyone manages to get home safely. Closest friends will stay to help with clean-up, then make a valiant attempt to empty the remaining beer crates while rambling incoherently. Which is the actual important part of the party  

Or something like that. 

An interesting way to have Kirika meet all the right people while staying in character could be to have her be uncomfortable and socially inept during most of the party, but for some reason let her stay until all the noisy ones start leaving, and then let her accidentally start helping someone collect garbage or something (cleaning up evidence as a reflex action?), and that way she can meet all the really important people in a natural Kirika-ish way. 
 
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Section_8
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 334
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject:    

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Voche, Vache, no biggie. Just as long as it sounds like "Marshmallow Cow," I'm good. 

Will read story when more awake.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 928
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:29 am    Post subject:    

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I didn't think of it before, but the party at Guy's house makes a good excuse to introduce his parents (perhaps they could drive Kirika home or something). Later on they will probably get a little hostile about medical bills and so on. 

Were you already establishing a trend of Guy sneaking up on Kirika? That's clever.... 

Another minor nitpick; I don't think it is realistic that Kirika (and Mireille) would not already have several fake identities set up. Kirika takes international flights repeatedly, she MUST have some "valid" ID. It would also be hugely inconvenient if any random ID check would leave her exposed. 

What would the rest of the class gain from the bet if Kirika won? Was she supposed to match the 580E bet? 

And references to American historical figures would very likely be completely lost on a class of French high school students... 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 928
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:25 am    Post subject:    

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And another nitpick; if Kirika got adopted, her school name would not be Yuumura would it? Perhaps the story would improve by trimming the specifics on the preparation a little. And perhaps add a bit on the motivation for going to that specific school, if it was such a hassle, people will wonder why she didn't opt for private tutors. It doesn't all have to be explained at the start, you can work it into conversations with Mireille, perhaps 

I assume Kirika joins the year of her age group, rather than restarting the year she was in in Japan? Given the difference in school system, that would make more sense. 

I had some minor stylistic comments but Guimauve will explain them so much better, I think. 

For shoujo-ai, you might want to wait until you have the next chapter. Right now people may suspect you are setting Kirika up to fall in love with the faceless guy  


=======================================================

Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 149
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:52 pm    Post subject:    

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I just uploaded the revised Chapter one yesterday, and I largely followed your advice, Faceless. It's at the same link as the other one: 
http://www.anycities.com/bulmafox/foxandfanfic/highschool/highschool1.html 

. 
. 
. 
...I think you just graduated to beta.  

And I'm at the party segment right now, and writing it is fun.
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 149
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:54 pm    Post subject:    

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I just uploaded Chapter 2 of Kirika Survives High School. Due to my inability to write drunk scenes, it's probably far from the final version. 

http://www.anycities.com/bulmafox/foxandfanfic/highschool/highschool2.html 

And I have an accompanying Kirika-getting-catbombed picture: 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/bulmafox/kiricat2.jpg 

...Is it just me, or does Kirika look like a Wavemaster?
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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Section_8
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 357
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:52 pm    Post subject:    

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Protip: Modify Kirika's catch phrase to "My name's Kirika. I kill people." Snappier, more abrupt, and resonates with the classic "His name's Jaws. He kills people." 

Quote: 
"Kirika, you kill people. I think being rude is the least of your worries." 


Bwah, ha, and ha. 

I'm waiting for Kirika to catch Mireille flat-footed about something. Probably dating advice. 

Quote: 
It all looked...overwhelming. There was a large crowd of people socialzing then the center of the room, some chairs against a wall and a buffet-like table--tub of drinks and all--against the other wall. Kirika spotted a garden on the far side of the room, jammed with more people socializing and drinking. She could hear strange music--music she'd never heard before--playing at full blast, coming from some place she couldn't see. She skirted the perimeter of the crowd, trying to do that 'mingling' thing Mireille had taught her. 


Speaking as a shy person at a party, I'd advise changing the first line to "It was bedlam" or something (since that's how most social gatherings look to me). A reference to a "wall of heat and noise" might also be appropriate (a fine party to some, a terrifying experience to others). Myself, I usually hunch down subconciously in such situations. I immeditely find spots where there are no people and head there. I avoid physical contact as if other people are made of acid, lava, fire, or flaming acidic lava. 

(*looks at research work* Hooray for procrastination!) 

Quote: 
She sat down after a while; she hadn't heard anything pertinent and now there was nothing to do. Worse, everyone seemed to have known each other from childhood, which would've made it harder to jump in even if they had been talking about stuff she knew. She leaned back and observed the crowd, wondering why she came at all. 


Could stick in some snippits of conversation here, quoted or not. Like... 

She edged along the wall, and listened in. 
"...oh, and Shannon, you know Shannon..." 
"...No. WAY! That's awesome! I'd never..." 
"...so much to drink that night, she..." 

[anyhoo, each line would refer to something or someone she has no knowledge of. Then...] 

She sat down by a plant. 

[Or something that implies she's slunk off somewhere.] 

Cats conversation: best moment yet. Snappy, lively, full of life. Very teeny bopper. 

(oddly enough, this is precisely the point where the story really kicks in for me. Must be the dialogue. No, wait, it's Vasche the Stampede. Hey, I didn't even notice the name would work that way...) 

Protip: locate a synonym for "socializing." Sound verra formal. Good for Kirika, not so much for others. "Mingle"? 

Hmm. Am pleased to say I have never been glamourbombed. 

Enjoyed that Kirika doesn't realize she's drunk. 

Excellent. Addition of fruity high-school characters has vastly improved story. Eagerly await the horrendous bloodbath.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 971
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:57 am    Post subject:    

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I'll think of some appropriately faceless-like phrases you can randomly insert to add character quirckyness.  

Shouldn't the first answer to "Oh God, Kirika. What have you done to her?!" be "......she got glamourbombed. Isn't it cu-oops." 

What did we feed poor Kirika to make her sick like that? Or she probably has no tolerance whatsoever? We wouldn't get excessively drunk at a party in the middle of the week... Or perhaps she made the mistake of tasting everything rather than sticking to one type of booze. We'll have to explain to her the difference between clean booze (next day you know you drank) and evil booze (next day you wish you were dead) and the hazards of mixing... 

There is something weird about "the nearest mirror, which was in a room way across the room" 

Also, is it common in the US to take painkillers when drunk? Most people I know seem to feel that mixing alcohol and drugs is a bad idea... 
 

==============================

  
kawakiisakazuki 
2005-03-03 09:57 (link)   Select 
Something you might want to elaborate on is Guy's reasons for throwing the party - you could perhaps use that to build more of a connection with Kirika. You do want to build a connection don't you?

For example, something like: "To be honest, I find this really exhausting - interacting with such crowds. The first time I gave a party, I felt terrified. I really had to force myself to do it. But I had to, or nothing would have ever changed. So you could say I'm throwing this party just for my own benefit. Selfish, isn't it?"
You could perhaps also give him a little cynical streak:
"You know, a lot of these people are here probably just to grab free drinks anyway. Watch how many will just disappear without a word if you don't believe me. But it's more than worth it if I get to know even one new interesting person..." 
 
=====================================
[Would Mireille sleep around?]

Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:26 pm    Post subject: Would Mireille sleep around?   

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I read a Noir fanfic a few days ago, called Love and Guns (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2057193/1/), and there's Miri'Kiri shoujoai in it, but before that, even before Kirika 
*SPOILERS* 









blurts out she loves Mireille, they were on a plane to England and Mireille had gone to the restroom. 15 minutes later, Kirika went to check on Mireille and Mireille came out with her hair messed up and her face flushed, and a man had follwed her out (Translation: Mireille and the man had done it in the bathroom), and I was just like "Poor Kirika!" And Mireille barely even knew the man and told Kirika he would be long gone by the time they got back to Paris. For some reason that story would not leave my head, even thought I had tried to think of "Lost But Not Forgotten-Forgotten But Not Lost", a Chloe/Kirika with Mireille angsting over them story, and "Moonlit Wine Party", where Chloe and Kirika had gotten drunk and slept together. Then last night, on my way home from work, I thought/realized that before episode 21 or so (or maybe even The Letter), I could not see Mireille being above engaging in casual sex, male or female. Can anyone else see Mireille going around the block, or am I taking this story way too seriously? And if you can, can anyone see Mireille sleeping aroud post series? I would really like to believe she doesn't.
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:32 pm    Post subject:    

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In a cabinet ON a plane? That takes some suspension of disbelief (although Emmanuelle did it in one of her movies I think  ) but regarding the question, I would think that, before the series, if Mireille is getting any at all, it would almost certainly be of the casual variety - too risky for everyone involved to get attached to someone, with her lifestyle. While she dresses like it could be her other nighttime job, I don't think she "goes around the block". Not that there would be anything wrong with it... (at least, not more wrong than she's already going). 

Post-series, I don't know. I don't think Mireille would feel a need to go look for casual sex while she has Kirika (assuming you believe they are together in *that* way  ), if she or Kirika actually fell in love with someone else, I could imagine some sort of multi-partner arrangement, but only with mutual consent. I don't believe Mireille would deliberately cheat on Kirika, or break a promise if she made one. Same thing for Kirika. 

Now I find "Love and Guns" a little depressing. If you need help to get your mind of it, maybe check out the kuroneko doujinshi, if you can find them. One of them has Mireille pressuring Chloe to have sex with Kirika (!!!) and herself, and then both of them, and they all end up living happily together in Mireille's appartment and doing kinky things ^_^

Last edited by FacelessMinion on Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:36 pm; edited 2 times in total 
 
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 269
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:33 pm    Post subject:    

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Not our Mirielle! I don't think she would do that. She's like Faye, she might seem easy but she doesn't do that. That's only what I think, but I believe you Faceless.
_________________
That may be all I need 
In darkness she is all I see 
So come and rest your bones with me 
Driving home on Sunday morning, 
And I never want to leave 
~Maroon5 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:44 pm    Post subject:    

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AthenAltena wrote: 
Not our Mirielle! I don't think she would do that. She's like Faye, she might seem easy but she doesn't do that. That's only what I think, but I believe you Faceless. 

It could explain why she was so bitchy...  
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:36 pm    Post subject:    

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Oh damn.... 

I know a lot of fanfics like this. They're quite funny, but I'm not a fan of them at all. Why? Because they simply don't fit the typical 'Noir-Style' - I mean, there's still a world-dominating organisation which wants to kill Mireille and Kirika. If you think of the 'real' episodes, you must agree with me that they in fact wouldn't even have time to 'fall in love' or something....  
 
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Tenjou-kun
Pezzant


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Ohtori
 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:18 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
If you think of the 'real' episodes, you must agree with me that they in fact wouldn't even have time to 'fall in love' or something.... 


Personally, I don't think falling in love is a process that one can be too busy for. It just kind of happens, whether you're concentrating on it or not, and all it really requires is being around that someone enough. 

And yeah, I agree with the general sentiment that Mireille wouldn't sleep around. She's simply too proud for that kind of behavior, if nothing else. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:32 pm    Post subject:    

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Tenjou-kun wrote: 
And yeah, I agree with the general sentiment that Mireille wouldn't sleep around. She's simply too proud for that kind of behavior, if nothing else. 


Absolutely. 

Too busy to fall in love - well, maybe not, but Mireille and Kirika have some things which are more important to think about, I suppose (like how to stay alive, to execute jobs, which race of kitten Kirika should buy herself and where to go if you're searching for the cheapest label clothes and the most stylish shoes, .... ). 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:46 am    Post subject:    

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Tenjou-kun wrote: 
Personally, I don't think falling in love is a process that one can be too busy for. It just kind of happens, whether you're concentrating on it or not, and all it really requires is being around that someone enough. 

It's the pheromones... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:01 am    Post subject:    

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Oh, I read that one too. No she bloody would not. 

Mireille has more class.  She's not a slut; she dresses like she does because she's confident and knows she looks good, and she knows she can pull it off while simultaneously keeping a man-free 10' radius around her with just her Evil Glare. 

She is not going to have casual possibly-disease-ridden sex with some guy in a public toilet. 

Like someone else here said, if she was that horny she knows Kirika's so up for it. 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:10 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
I would think that, before the series, if Mireille is getting any at all, it would almost certainly be of the casual variety - too risky for everyone involved to get attached to someone, with her lifestyle. 

I agree with that so far that it is one of the possibilities she has with her attitude: "Assassins have no friends/relationships". The other possiblities I see are to wait with sex until she quits the job or doing it by herself. But for all who have seen the series should be clear that there was no sex before and during series. Noir are two maiden, and Mireille is a qualified Noir. So no sex for Mirelle, no sex for Kirika and no sex for Chloe. 

And post series for sure no casual sex as long as together with Kirika. There could be no doubt that they are together *that* way, there are to many hints during series. Especially the ending in German dub implies it strong. Mireille says to Kiriika while holding her tight over the lava pit: "Please hold out...Don't leave me alone...We make it" (In German:"Bitte halte durch...La mich nicht alleine...Wir schaffen es", for whom it's from interest. Maybe my tranlation can be misunderstood.) 

Tenjou-kun wrote: 
And yeah, I agree with the general sentiment that Mireille wouldn't sleep around. She's simply too proud for that kind of behavior, if nothing else. 

To proud? I don't think it would be against her pride as long as she forces it, controls it. I'm thinking for example at the Ulgia ep., as she uses her attractivity to kill that one guy with his own weapon. And I think she could do that if really hungry for sex without hurting her pride. But of course, as long as not invoved in a relationship. She would never betray her partner. That's for sure against her pride. And I think, she would do that "sleeping around" not very often, only from time to time.
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No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:16 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
But for all who have seen the series should be clear that there was no sex before and during series. Noir are two maiden, and Mireille is a qualified Noir. So no sex for Mirelle, no sex for Kirika and no sex for Chloe. 

I don't think the "maidens" was supposed to be taken litterally - it probably means only "young women", not that they actually need to be virgins. 

Anyway Mireille has no reason at all to feel bound by Soldats' definition of Noir. If she knew that they were supposed to be virgins, she might take Kirika and Chloe along on a wild night of debauchery just to spite Altena by disqualifying them all! 

I'm not saying they did, I just don't think your reasoning is convincing. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:45 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
Noir are two maiden, and Mireille is a qualified Noir. So no sex for Mirelle, no sex for Kirika and no sex for Chloe. 


Mireille wasn't raised as a 'True Noir', so she didn't live like one eighter, I suppose....  

FallenAngel wrote: 
To proud? I don't think it would be against her pride as long as she forces it, controls it. I'm thinking for example at the Ulgia ep., as she uses her attractivity to kill that one guy with his own weapon. And I think she could do that if really hungry for sex without hurting her pride. But of course, as long as not invoved in a relationship. She would never betray her partner. That's for sure against her pride. And I think, she would do that "sleeping around" not very often, only from time to time. 


I've got to disagree totally. It would be against her pride to show any kind of weakness (you can see it very often during the series). So she wouldn't sleep around for sure. I don't even believe that Mireille needs a relationship or a man so badly. She's independent enough to make it on her own. 
 
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Tenjou-kun
Pezzant


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Ohtori
 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:56 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
To proud? I don't think it would be against her pride as long as she forces it, controls it. I'm thinking for example at the Ulgia ep., as she uses her attractivity to kill that one guy with his own weapon. 


First of all, when I said "too proud," I didn't mean it in the sense of arrogance or something - Sprite worded my thoughts better than I did, actually. ^^; And as for the incident you described in the Uglia ep, Mireille did what she did simply because it was a convenient way to kill him. She uses a lot of dirty tricks like that, actually - I think it's just part of her style. (And what's really funny about it is that she has the gall to accuse Kirika of being "vulgar." Gotta love it.) 

Quote: 
And I think she could do that if really hungry for sex without hurting her pride. 


I dunno, something about Mireille and "hungry for sex" in the same sentence just doesn't jive. I'm not saying she's asexual or something, but I really don't think she gives a damn. If she ever did get some kind of uncontrollable urge, I think it'd be more likely for her to ah, take care of it herself than just go out on a random screwing spree. But that's just me. ^^; 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:53 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
I dunno, something about Mireille and "hungry for sex" in the same sentence just doesn't jive. I'm not saying she's asexual or something, but I really don't think she gives a damn. If she ever did get some kind of uncontrollable urge, I think it'd be more likely for her to ah, take care of it herself than just go out on a random screwing spree. But that's just me. ^^; 


::nods:: I think you're right, really. I think at the time of the series she probably feels like she has her mind on more important things, like literature and assassination. :3 

Seriously, though, I do agree. 

Quote: 
Anyway Mireille has no reason at all to feel bound by Soldats' definition of Noir. If she knew that they were supposed to be virgins, she might take Kirika and Chloe along on a wild night of debauchery just to spite Altena by disqualifying them all! 


 We have the fanfic siiiiiign!  
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:43 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
 We have the fanfic siiiiiign!  


Right - this could be intresting  
 
 Message 
FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:02 pm    Post subject:    

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Oops. I didn't expect that much opposition. Seems to me like some would make Mireille some kind of Saint. Since I've voted for her as favorite main character I see her more human, with human needs and weaknesses. 

FacelessMinion wrote: 
I don't think the "maidens" was supposed to be taken litterally - it probably means only "young women", not that they actually need to be virgins.  

For me there are several reasons why they have to be. Soldats believe is over 1000 years old. At these times maiden had been supposed as nearly invincible in fight. An example for that is Brnhilde from the German "Saga of the Nibelungs". And surprisingly there is a historic person who seemed to prove it right: Jeanne d'Arc, Maid of Orleans. And there is Altena. Considering her past, she never had a chance to feel how it is to be a virgin. Then she hears or reads about Noir, two maiden with that power. From that time she dedicatet her whole life to one objective: to bring Noir back into the world. For sure she would have disqualified any sapling who wasn't any longer a vrgin. And maybe she had taken influence on their lives, so that they never encountered a situation in which they could loose their innocence. 

FacelessMinion wrote: 
Anyway Mireille has no reason at all to feel bound by Soldats' definition of Noir. 

Mireille doesn't know anything about Noir. So she has no reason to live the Noir way, but also no reason to live in opposition to that. 
Kamui wrote: 
It would be against her pride to show any kind of weakness (you can see it very often during the series). 

I can't see any weakness if she uses a man to get her satisfaction. It's normally seen as sign of strength if you can bring someone to follow your will. 

Tenjou-kun wrote: 
I dunno, something about Mireille and "hungry for sex" in the same sentence just doesn't jive. I'm not saying she's asexual or something, but I really don't think she gives a damn. If she ever did get some kind of uncontrollable urge, I think it'd be more likely for her to ah, take care of it herself than just go out on a random screwing spree. But that's just me. ^^; 

Mireille is surpressing a big part of herself because of her job. Sexuality is one of that things. The longer she surpresses, the stronger will be the pressure. One day it will break through with power. And I'm not sure if taking care for herself will be enough. But that's of course the Mireille we see at the beginning. Later on she stopps surpressing her other half, so that dam break for sure would not happen. But if there is a break up between her and Kirka, who knows...
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:38 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
 We have the fanfic siiiiiign!  


Right - this could be intresting  


Really. I wanna read it. And whoever writes it, make sure to include Altena's reaction when she finds out Mireille disqualified them all.   

And I'm so glad to hear affirmation that Mireille wouldn't sleep around, and that Sprite read that story too and it sent her off on a rant. I think I was emphasizing with Kirika too much, becuase I could just feel her heart breaking if she finally got the courage to tell Mireille how she feels...only to be shot down by some random man in an airplane bathroom. 

Needless to say, when push comes to shove I feel for Kirika (as opposed to Mireille or Chloe).
_________________
Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:27 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
I could just feel her heart breaking if she finally got the courage to tell Mireille how she feels...only to be shot down by some random man in an airplane bathroom. 

It's not wise to upset a Kirika, I think even she has limits... and to see her actually *angry* must be very very scary ::shudder:: 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:37 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
Oops. I didn't expect that much opposition. Seems to me like some would make Mireille some kind of Saint. Since I've voted for her as favorite main character I see her more human, with human needs and weaknesses. 


I see Mireille as a proud, strong, absolutely independent woman, so I don't think she needs things like a relationship as necessary as you were trying to tell us  
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:05 pm    Post subject:    

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I spend more energy analyzing Kirika, but I do think Mireille may have fallen for someone who was later killed (remember when she warned Kirika to stay away from the painter?). She has amazing walls up, and that kind of experience would strengthen them. If anything, someone like her could just sleep around with strangers, if she wanted to, but I think she's too dignified and smart to make it a habit. I never read anything romantic or sexual into Mireille's relationship with Kirika, either. 

I agree that Noir was intended to be some kind of holy virgin pair, whether or not they actually were. It fits too well. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:16 pm    Post subject:    

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Hikari wrote: 
I agree that Noir was intended to be some kind of holy virgin pair, whether or not they actually were. It fits too well. 


I think so too. Kirika and Chloe were raised to be True Noir one day - so they're definitly 'maiden', I guess. In Mireille case I'm not so sure about it....  
 
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hayama
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 89
Location: Virginia...erm...Northern Virginia
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:20 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
Hikari wrote: 
I agree that Noir was intended to be some kind of holy virgin pair, whether or not they actually were. It fits too well. 


I think so too. Kirika and Chloe were raised to be True Noir one day - so they're definitly 'maiden', I guess. In Mireille case I'm not so sure about it....  


Aren't they a bit younger than Mirielle anyway?
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Tenjou-kun
Pezzant


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Ohtori
 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:30 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
I see Mireille as a proud, strong, absolutely independent woman, so I don't think she needs things like a relationship as necessary as you were trying to tell us. 


Though this comment wasn't directed at me, I feel compelled to reply to it because I disagree entirely. ^^; In my opinion, Mireille is extremely lonely: at the beginning of the series, I think she's only aware of it on a subconscious level, but once she gets to know Kirika, she fully realizes that she can never return to solitude. Her loneliness is something she sees as a weakness, I guess, so she overcompensates and acts like she doesn't need anyone at all. 

And I do agree that no one necessarily needs a relationship, but being independent isn't going to stop you from wanting one or anything. Even the most solitary people eventually want some kind of companionship; human beings are inescapably social creatures. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:41 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Oops. I didn't expect that much opposition. Seems to me like some would make Mireille some kind of Saint. Since I've voted for her as favorite main character I see her more human, with human needs and weaknesses.  

I hope you didn't mean me. I agree with you that Mireille might have been casually active before meeting Kirika. If she's not too dignified to kill people for money, she can certainly use them for pleasure. I don't even think she would necessarily need to dominate in a relationship; while she is usually proud and independent, people's sexual fantasies are not always in line with their day-to-day selves. She is as likely to get off on being submissive, getting humiliated and degraded... 

I didn't agree with your other proposal, that Mireille has to be a technical virgin because Soldats' theology says so. 
Quote: 
In my opinion, Mireille is extremely lonely: at the beginning of the series, I think she's only aware of it on a subconscious level, but once she gets to know Kirika, she fully realizes that she can never return to solitude.  

There is always the internet  
Seriously though, I think everybody in the series is extremely, desperately lonely. Kirika shacks up with the woman who promised to kill her. Mireille falls for the murderer of her family. Chloe sees Altena's abusive manipulation as love. Even Altena starts to care for girls she shouldn't have any feelings for. Loneliness and the need for company could even be considered a major secondary theme of the series... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:42 am    Post subject:    

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Tenjou-kun wrote: 
And I do agree that no one necessarily needs a relationship, but being independent isn't going to stop you from wanting one or anything. Even the most solitary people eventually want some kind of companionship; human beings are inescapably social creatures. 


This is true. Casual sex does not = companionship, though. Sex is a biological release; a relationship is a relationship. If Mireille was <em>lonely</em>, sleeping around isn't really going to make her feel better. 

<em>Oops. I didn't expect that much opposition. Seems to me like some would make Mireille some kind of Saint. Since I've voted for her as favorite main character I see her more human, with human needs and weaknesses.</em> 

I don't think saying she wouldn't sleep around makes her a saint. She has a lot of faults, and probably her high opinion of herself is one of them if taken to an extreme (there's nothing wrong with having a high opinion of yourself in general). But because she has such a high opinion of herself, I also don't think she'd degrade her body. 

Bulmafox - I totally agree.  

Quote: 
It's not wise to upset a Kirika, I think even she has limits... and to see her actually *angry* must be very very scary ::shudder:: 


Oh, yeah. Remember we still have Dark Kirika............ 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:42 am    Post subject:    

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Tenjou-kun wrote: 
And I do agree that no one necessarily needs a relationship, but being independent isn't going to stop you from wanting one or anything. Even the most solitary people eventually want some kind of companionship; human beings are inescapably social creatures. 


This is true. Casual sex does not = companionship, though. Sex is a biological release; a relationship is a relationship. If Mireille was lonely, sleeping around isn't really going to make her feel better. 

Quote: 
Oops. I didn't expect that much opposition. Seems to me like some would make Mireille some kind of Saint. Since I've voted for her as favorite main character I see her more human, with human needs and weaknesses. 


I don't think saying she wouldn't sleep around makes her a saint. She has a lot of faults, and probably her high opinion of herself is one of them if taken to an extreme (there's nothing wrong with having a high opinion of yourself in general). But because she has such a high opinion of herself, I also don't think she'd degrade her body. 

Bulmafox - I totally agree.  

Quote: 
It's not wise to upset a Kirika, I think even she has limits... and to see her actually *angry* must be very very scary ::shudder:: 


Oh, yeah. Remember we still have Dark Kirika........... 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:17 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 

Quote: 
It's not wise to upset a Kirika, I think even she has limits... and to see her actually *angry* must be very very scary ::shudder:: 


Oh, yeah. Remember we still have Dark Kirika........... 

I wasn't thinking of Dark Kirika. Dark Kirika is not *angry* I think, just emotionless, and that is scary enough. I don't think we ever see Kirika angry, the closest she comes is probably when Altena returns her Berretta. 

But if things happened like in that fanfic, and Mireille kept treating Kirika like a doormat, I imagine she might just snap someday and fly into a rage of apocaliptic proportion ::shudder some more:: 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:21 am    Post subject:    

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Kirika acts fairly angry at the end of ep 26 with her "We're not who you think we are!" and shoving Altena into the lava.... (see icon at left.) 

Dark Kirika says she's not emotionless.    

I think you're probably right, though. If Mireille used Kirika too much, she eventually would rebel. She has her limits, and she's been used all her life. Thankfully one hopes that this situation never comes to pass ^_^ 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:49 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
Kirika acts fairly angry at the end of ep 26 with her "We're not who you think we are!" and shoving Altena into the lava.... (see icon at left.) 

Somehow I have the feeling Kirika has the tendency to direct her anger primarily inwards, even in that scene - she's not just "shoving Altena into the lava", she's throwing herself in, too. What I think we didn't see is Kirika consiously focusing anger or hatred on another person, if that makes sense. I guess I can't explain it very well. 
Quote: 
Dark Kirika says she's not emotionless.  

Eep! unn... Hi, Dark Kirika, pleased to meet you. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, it's very hard to describe someone in a few words without doing them injustice. Now that you're here, perhaps you want to say something about yourself, rather than have me scrambling to find a better description? 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:52 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Somehow I have the feeling Kirika has the tendency to direct her anger primarily inwards, even in that scene - she's not just "shoving Altena into the lava", she's throwing herself in, too. What I think we didn't see is Kirika consiously focusing anger or hatred on another person, if that makes sense. I guess I can't explain it very well. 


I guess that's understandable, yah. 

Quote: 
eep! unn... Hi, Dark Kirika, pleased to meet you. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, it's very hard to describe someone in a few words without doing them injustice. Now that you're here, perhaps you want to say something about yourself, rather than have me scrambling to find a better description? 


You didn't hurt her feelings, and she won't talk here because of people going "omg don't let the kirikas into the threads! they'll eat our cookies!", so if you want to know about her, email her. She's been around a lot, lately. 
 
FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:14 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
she won't talk here because of people going "omg don't let the kirikas into the threads! they'll eat our cookies!". 

::hands out pralines and chocolat chip cookies to all Kirikas:: 
Quote: 
She's been around a lot, lately. 

Not because she feels her presence is required, I hope. 

I think Dark Kirika is a little scary, but I also feel sorry for her. It seems so unfair that just because she happened to be the strong one that she had to handle all the shitty stuff... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:28 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
::hands out pralines and chocolat chip cookies to all Kirikas:: 


Kirikas: ::are starving, munch with great gusto:: 

Quote: 
Not because she feels her presence is required, I hope. 


Not really, she just feels her presence adds an extra dimension to Mireille and Kirika's relationship. ^_^ She used to pop up before when Kirika was threatened, though. 

She's mellowed a lot, incidentally, though she hmphs at the suggestion. She's more Mischievous Confident Kirika Who Don't Take No Shit now. 

Quote: 
I think Dark Kirika is a little scary, but I also feel sorry for her. It seems so unfair that just because she happened to be the strong one that she had to handle all the shitty stuff... 


Actually, she was the strong one because she handled the shitty stuff. She'll readily admit that she created herself to shield Kirika from the pain. It doesn't make it fair on her, no, but without her Kirika would have gone insane. 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:24 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
I didn't agree with your other proposal, that Mireille has to be a technical virgin because Soldats' theology says so. 
 

Next may sound like I would make them saints, but it isn't meant this way. I hope I can explain it right. I dont' think the saplings only have to be technical virgins. They have to be "pure" or "real" virgins, without any sexual experience. Maybe that's some balance to the fact that Noir has to sin (in addition the the strength of virgins). But I don't think any of them had decided to stay virgin for some reason. Neither Kirika or Chloe for becoming Noir, nor Mireille for any other reason one can imagine. It simply happened with the circumstances. Kirika and Chloe trained as Noir, Mireille trained and doing her job as assassin. That none of them really cares about the fact that Noir should be virgins is best shown from the sapling with the strongest desire to become Noir: Chloe. Kissing and hugging Kirika is the beginning of no longer being a virgin. Of course, it's hard to believe that the Corsican beauty still should be virgin. But surprisingly often beautiful girls stay longer virgins than the ugly ones. 

Hikari wrote: 
I never read anything romantic or sexual into Mireille's relationship with Kirika, either.  

You're kidding, right? While watching Noir the first time, I realized Kirikas feelings for Mireille at ep.4, Mireilles for Kirika at ep.7. But watching it again, with that knowledge, I'm convinced in ep.1 we see both fall in love at first sight. 

Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
But because she has such a high opinion of herself, I also don't think she'd degrade her body.  

In Ulgia she actually degrades her body. I don't see the difference if she does it for the job or to get sexual satisfaction. But to make it clear again: A scene like in the airplane cabinet I also can't imagine. And for sure she would not sleep around like a slut. As I said, only frome time to time, if really necessary (taking care for one self isn't always satisfying, sometimes one needs a real partner for sex) And wouldn't it confirm her high opinion of herself if she can have any sexual partner she wants?
_________________
No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:16 pm    Post subject:    

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Mireille's not above killing people...because she has her own logic about what she needs to do, which I think comes from what happened to her parents. That is a whole other topic, but it explains for me why she's fine with murdering. Sleeping around, on the other hand, is a totally different thing... 


FallenAngel wrote: 
You're kidding, right? While watching Noir the first time, I realized Kirikas feelings for Mireille at ep.4, Mireilles for Kirika at ep.7. But watching it again, with that knowledge, I'm convinced in ep.1 we see both fall in love at first sight. 


No, I know this puts me in the minority here, but when Mireille helps Kirika in ep. 7, the fact that she was thinking hard about the death of her family right before she made her decision tells me why she did it. I think they have a connection because of their circumstances, and there's a strong bond there by the end, obviously. I just never see them as anything more than close friends/sisters. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:03 pm    Post subject:    

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Hikari wrote: 
I just never see them as anything more than close friends/sisters. 


I can't believe it - at least one guy posting in this forum don't actually see Noir as a group of lesbians!  

I totally agree with Hiraki about episode 7 - and I have to disagree with fallenangel, once again - espacially his comment about episode 1 is nothing but stuff for another 'nice', romantic, totally-anti-Noir-style fanfic - 'love at first sight'.... 
 
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Tenjou-kun
Pezzant


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Ohtori
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:24 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
I can't believe it - at least one guy posting in this forum don't actually see Noir as a group of lesbians! 


...er, not touching that one. I'm in too bad of a mood right now. XD 

Quote: 
I totally agree with Hiraki about episode 7 - and I have to disagree with fallenangel, once again - espacially his comment about episode 1 is nothing but stuff for another 'nice', romantic, totally-anti-Noir-style fanfic - 'love at first sight'.... 


I do agree with you there. Love at first sight is hard to imagine in Noir, but that could be because I don't believe in love at first sight in general. Love at first sight = blind lust in my opinion, and I don't see Kirika or Mireille as particularly lusty people. ^^; Perhaps FallenAngel can explain his theory in greater detail? 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:39 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
I can't believe it - at least one guy posting in this forum don't actually see Noir as a group of lesbians!   


Girl, not guy.  

Chloe is the one who makes me wonder, when she kisses Kirika...but I have my doubts, since she's more (and that scene is more) complicated than that. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:22 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
I totally agree with Hiraki about episode 7 - and I have to disagree with fallenangel, once again - espacially his comment about episode 1 is nothing but stuff for another 'nice', romantic, totally-anti-Noir-style fanfic - 'love at first sight'.... 

It's not "love at first sight" because their lives were connected since they were born; they are the Noir saplings, bound by the threads of fate. There is definitely some bond going, even in episode 1, that goes way beyond what can be explained by the events we see. 
Quote: 
I can't believe it - at least one guy posting in this forum don't actually see Noir as a group of lesbians!  

Noir IS about love, in my opinion. It's not a shoot-up-villain-of-the-week action anime. There IS love between the Noir saplings going on. Whether they also engage in hot flaming lesbian sex is irrelevant outside of the hentai fanfics, and frankly none of our business anyway  
Quote: 
But surprisingly often beautiful girls stay longer virgins than the ugly ones.  

I'll have to take your word on that.  I don't really follow your theory on the supposed virtues of virginity but I agree that they all probably still are (well, not Altena) so it's a moot point. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:32 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Noir IS about love, in my opinion. It's not a shoot-up-villain-of-the-week action anime. There IS love between the Noir saplings going on. Whether they also engage in hot flaming lesbian sex is irrelevant outside of the hentai fanfics, and frankly none of our business anyway  


Noir is about love - well, maybe - Noir got drama elements, so this would fit, too. I just believe that it's not about THIS kind of love - like fallenangel described it - it's more like the love between sisters - that's why I absolutely agree with Hikari  
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:42 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
I just believe that it's not about THIS kind of love - like fallenangel described it - it's more like the love between sisters - that's why I absolutely agree with Hikari  

I have a sister and a brother. I see not much similarity between our relation and what the Noir girls have. Your situation may differ, but for me, calling it "sisterly love" doesn't seem accurate. 

When Kirika is hanging out with her painter buddy, do you think Mireille is only worried that something bad might possibly happen? Or might she be a little jealous, perhaps? (and I don't mean because she wants Milosh for herself!) 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:24 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
When Kirika is hanging out with her painter buddy, do you think Mireille is only worried that something bad might possibly happen? Or might she be a little jealous, perhaps? 


Certainly not. She's only worried because that situation - her dangerous job and a relationship at the same time - seems to be not actually unfamiliar to her. 

As I said, I see Noir just like they are - two assassins at work. No love, no couples, no affairs - just a fight for survival every day  
 
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Deathbringer
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 74
Location: 667 - neighbor of the beast
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:38 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
As I said, I see Noir just like they are - two assassins at work. No love, no couples, no affairs - just a fight for survival every day  


yeah .. this is perfectly the meaning ,that Althena has about them ...or not ? .... 




(attention : The following tet is spoiled ! ) 


>in the end of noir you can hear two shoots< 

2 series ago mireille had said " I kill you kirika .... i kill you" or staff like that ... 

So... do you think ,Kirika kills mireille and mireille kirika in the end ? 
`couse mireille cant imagine how she would live without kirika.... aud kirika not without mireille ...so they kill them against ... or not ? " thisabout we want to find the light" ,mireille said a few seconds before.... 

But this want to be too sad .... i didnt hope ,thats so like i told you .... please say ,that it isnt like i tell ! pleaaasee 

>>>> I don`t want to make all noir-fans cry ,but it can be happend like this .....or not ?<<<<<
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"Love certainly can kill people, however, don't forget, hatred can never save people, NEVER!!" 

-- Odette Bouquet 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:31 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
Certainly not. She's only worried because that situation - her dangerous job and a relationship at the same time - seems to be not actually unfamiliar to her. 

As I said, I see Noir just like they are - two assassins at work. No love, no couples, no affairs - just a fight for survival every day  

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? How could that situation be familiar to her, if your second paragraph is true? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:34 am    Post subject:    

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Deathbringer wrote: 

So... do you think ,Kirika kills mireille and mireille kirika in the end ? 
 

We can never know for certain, but it would be a fairly drastic approach to "looking for the light". Some people claim they recognise the shots as being from Mireille's and Kirika's weapons. But they don't have them anymore at that time. So, it is a mystery... 

Don't believe every odd fanart you see  
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:56 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
How could that situation be familiar to her, if your second paragraph is true? 


Everyone starts as a beginner - so did Mireille. If she really made this 'mistake' once before it happened a quite long time ago, I suppose. 
 
Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:02 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
We can never know for certain, but it would be a fairly drastic approach to "looking for the light". 


I believe that 'looking for the light' is some kind of 'keyword'. Both of them want a better life - they want to be happy again - the black maiden are looking for the light - they want to break with their destiny as Soldats 'dark hands'. I really don't think they shot the other at the end - because I'd ask myself then what they were fighting for, if not for freedom, for revenge.... 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:37 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
When Kirika is hanging out with her painter buddy, do you think Mireille is only worried that something bad might possibly happen? Or might she be a little jealous, perhaps? (and I don't mean because she wants Milosh for herself!) 
 

Yeah, that's right. The same one ep. later for Kirika. She lurks around to figure out who sends flowers to Mireille. And later on she follows Mireille despite her order and wonders why Mireille doesn't return, now that she's with her (on way to rendezvous?). For me it's jealousy. 

Tenjou-kun wrote: 
Love at first sight is hard to imagine in Noir, but that could be because I don't believe in love at first sight in general. Love at first sight = blind lust in my opinion, and I don't see Kirika or Mireille as particularly lusty people. ^^; Perhaps FallenAngel can explain his theory in greater detail? 
 

Love at first sight hasn't to do with blind lust. It happened to me several times, unfortunatly unreplied. Most times I had the chance to learn more about the one, and it always confirmed me that the first impression, which let me fall in love, was right. The thing, what made me believe that Mireille was fallen in love at first sight with Kirika is to see in ep. 21 at the cemetary. Kirika is begging Mireille to shot her, Mireille pointing gun on her. Mireille has a flashback - remembering Kirika as they first met, sitting at the steelbar at the construction site. After that Mireille lowers the gun. For me Mireille remembered that point she was fallen in love to Kirika. Asumming that, it explains much of her behaviour in ep. 1. We see her struggle between the love to Kirika and her attitude: "Killer have no friends. I'm an outsider". The return of the loaded and cocked Beretta: First pointing at Kirika - then reversing it, pointing at herself. (I 'll shoot you - I trust you) First she refuses to help Kirika, but later on she agrees, with the stipulation to kill her after all. At the school she cares for Kirikas feelings. And at last the way she looks at sleeping Kirika says more than thousand words. And if you assume Kirika also fallen in love at first sight to Mireille, it also explains much of her behavior.
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No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:48 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
FacelessMinion wrote: 
How could that situation be familiar to her, if your second paragraph is true? 


Everyone starts as a beginner - so did Mireille. If she really made this 'mistake' once before it happened a quite long time ago, I suppose. 

I don't think Mireille did make that mistake. She lost long times ago three people she loved due to connections to underworld - her mother, her father and her brother!
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:20 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Yeah, that's right. The same one ep. later for Kirika. She lurks around to figure out who sends flowers to Mireille. And later on she follows Mireille despite her order and wonders why Mireille doesn't return, now that she's with her (on way to rendezvous?). For me it's jealousy. 

Kirika also spies on Mireille when Mireille is making out with Silvana  
Quote: 
And if you assume Kirika also fallen in love at first sight to Mireille, it also explains much of her behavior. 

I don't think it's really "at first sight", I think something was there even before they met in episode 1, perhaps implanted by Soldats' mindmeld/t technique. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:13 am    Post subject:    

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Please, not the bloody gunshots argument again. :3 

Even I can tell, with my untrained, never-heard-a-real-gun-fired-in-my-life ear, that the two end shots are the same SFX used for Mireille and Kirika's guns. Mireille and Kirika lost guns in the Altena battle/lava pit, ergo, no shooty-shooty for Noir. 

And Kamui - everyone likes to think differently about Noir. The director and producer said specifically that Noir is different for everyone, that you should see it the way you want it, and that it's okay to play around with the concept. So if you see Noir as "just" an assassin story - I think that takes some of the magic out of it personally, but that's your prerogative. Just as it is ours to see it as yuri.  

..That first para does contradict the second, I know. But I do think that's less ambiguous than, say, whether M&K were doing it. 

Quote: 
I don't think it's really "at first sight", I think something was there even before they met in episode 1, perhaps implanted by Soldats' mindmeld/t technique. 


Kirika does seem pretty infatuated at first. The whole "ahh, I have no memories and I'm an assassin and I suck! But some evil gunmen want to kill me! Not going to let them do that. But, ah, here's this blonde chick who wants to kill me, I'll look up at her with puppy eyes and tell her in a breathy voice that this is okay. Repeatedly." 

....I'm beginning to think Kirika has the "being killed by your Goddess" thing going on here, to reference the other thread. :3 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:29 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
....I'm beginning to think Kirika has the "being killed by your Goddess" thing going on here, to reference the other thread. :3 

Hey, I've been thinking that for a long time, that Kirika wants Mireille to kill her. At least in the first half of Noir, there is almost no episode where she doesn't give Mireille some opportunity and/or reason to kill her. 

- I know all your secrets. Oh by the way here is my loaded and cocked pistol - don't mind the safety is off... 
- Did you consider you could kill someone really dead with this kitchen knife? Here, take it... 
- You're a bit slow aren't you, how about if I spook you by pointing my gun at your head... 
- I've been shot, I'm dying, kill me please (never mind that I can take a few hours of additional torture and still kill people with a slip of paper, I'm a goner, really!) 
...and so on. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:42 am    Post subject:    

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For some reason I now have images of Kirika singing melodramatically "And now... the end is near.... and so I face.... the final curtain......" 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:25 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
For some reason I now have images of Kirika singing melodramatically "And now... the end is near.... and so I face.... the final curtain......" 


Ack! Lyrics in my head. must. kill. them... 

One more kiss, dear 
One more sigh 
Only this, dear 
Is goodbye 
For our love is such passion 
And such pleasure 
And I'll treasure untill I die 

Like the sun, dear 
Upon high 
We'll return, dear 
To the sky 
And we'll banish the pain and the sorrow 
Until tomorrow goodbye 
... 

(that's the end of Bladerunner btw) 
 
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Deathbringer
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 74
Location: 667 - neighbor of the beast
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:38 am    Post subject:    

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wow ! I wonder why you`re here ! Go to a talentholder ! *gg* 


Faceless you`re very good .... do you think about a theme and the lyrik comes or do does it come from itself ?
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"Love certainly can kill people, however, don't forget, hatred can never save people, NEVER!!" 

-- Odette Bouquet 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:10 am    Post subject:    

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 It's not mine! It's from ah... what's his name... Vangelis Papatha...pathapatha... Papathanassiou! 

It's the ending theme from the movie "blade runner" that somehow got into my head now, probably because the movie ends just when we realise Deckard and Rachel are both going to die soon. 
 
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Deathbringer
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 74
Location: 667 - neighbor of the beast
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:28 am    Post subject:    

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ok.... i thougt it was yours .... lool 


is the film blade runenr a new film?
_________________
"Love certainly can kill people, however, don't forget, hatred can never save people, NEVER!!" 

-- Odette Bouquet 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:44 am    Post subject:    

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Deathbringer wrote: 
is the film blade runenr a new film? 

Not really, 1982, previous millenium. By Ridley Scott, with Harrison Ford, based on a book by Philip K. Dick 
See for example http://www.brmovie.com/What_is_BR.htm 
It's a classic. 
It influenced a lot of anime, for example Bubblegum Crisis and Silent Mobius... 

Now that I think of it, the spinning fan in Noir's opening animation might very well be a blade runner tribute... 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:07 pm    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
And Kamui - everyone likes to think differently about Noir. The director and producer said specifically that Noir is different for everyone, that you should see it the way you want it, and that it's okay to play around with the concept. So if you see Noir as "just" an assassin story - I think that takes some of the magic out of it personally, but that's your prerogative. Just as it is ours to see it as yuri.  
 

I fully agree with that. And it's good that Noir can be seen that different ways - otherwise this forum might be really boring.
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No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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Section_8
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 364
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:19 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Please, not the bloody gunshots argument again. :3 

Even I can tell, with my untrained, never-heard-a-real-gun-fired-in-my-life ear, that the two end shots are the same SFX used for Mireille and Kirika's guns. Mireille and Kirika lost guns in the Altena battle/lava pit, ergo, no shooty-shooty for Noir. 
 


Hmmm.... 

Now that I think of it, the shots could've been both a salute AND a suicide! 

Provided there was no wind, and that they shot straight up, and that they stood around chatting about tea and complaining about blood loss, the bullets could have fallen straight down and popped them both in the head! 

Mystery solved! 

Good work, Fabulous Five!
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:24 pm    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
And Kamui - everyone likes to think differently about Noir. The director and producer said specifically that Noir is different for everyone, that you should see it the way you want it, and that it's okay to play around with the concept. So if you see Noir as "just" an assassin story - I think that takes some of the magic out of it personally, but that's your prerogative. Just as it is ours to see it as yuri.  


I know, and I totally accept that as well as the freedom of speech here - I just think it's horrible that some people around here put Noir on the same level with series like Najica or Wedding peach, for example. 

I'm not a big fan of love stories - expecially then when they're absolute unnecessary  

Beside - Noir is pretty realistic, in a sense - in the 'real world' people also do have other things to think and to care about than love and how to tell your chosen one about your feelings - especially when they're assassins - that's why I can't back anyone up who shares this view, I'm sorry  

Section_8 - it's not even nearly 3 am now and you already post things like this *surprised*  
 
FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:13 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
I know, and I totally accept that as well as the freedom of speech here - I just think it's horrible that some people around here put Noir on the same level with series like Najica or Wedding peach, for example. 
 

I don't think anyone does. What you do is like comparing Formula One cars with family cars because both have four wheels and an engine. 

Quote: 
I'm not a big fan of love stories - expecially then when they're absolute unnecessary  
 

It's necessary. Whole Noir is about love and hatred, and at the end the love between K & M wins over hatred. 

Quote: 
Beside - Noir is pretty realistic, in a sense - in the 'real world' people also do have other things to think and to care about than love and how to tell your chosen one about your feelings - especially when they're assassins - that's why I can't back anyone up who shares this view, I'm sorry   

Is it so? Poor world. Then I should get me a gun and shoot me.  If not - poor guy. 
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No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:01 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
I don't think anyone does. What you do is like comparing Formula One cars with family cars because both have four wheels and an engine. 


Alright, my examples were a lil' bit too close to the edge, but the curse is right, if you read some topics in this forum  

FallenAngel wrote: 
It's necessary. Whole Noir is about love and hatred, and at the end the love between K & M wins over hatred. 


Oh, I see. Killing the Hater to win over his hatred is a victory of love - and continue to murder and to commit sins is also a step forward for love - hell no....  

Noir didn't actually 'win' at the end of the series. They killed Althena, k, but there are still thousands of Soldats which have just one aim - too see Mireille and Kirika as dead meat. I don't call a future like this a 'victory', actually.... 

Beside - you don't even know, if they finally have a romance in the end - you can't definitely say if Althena really loved Chloe or not, eighter - so you can't tell me that Noir is just about 'love' (this word is now ment as a relationship much deeper as friend/sister could be - just to prevent any misunderstanding  ) and hatred, because both words don't have a real meaning in this series (mention the examples above). 

One last thing - how do you know that Mireille saved Kirika out of the love she feels for her? Maybe she just didn't want to be the tool of today's Soldats to kill Althena, maybe she couldn't kill her because a black thread binds them together, maybe she recognized that Kirika was brainwashed when she killed her parents and isn't the 'real' one to blame, .... 

You can't disagree with me that we won't ever be certain about her motives - if I'm right, your whole theory is worthless.... 

FallenAngel wrote: 
Is it so? Poor world. Then I should get me a gun and shoot me.  If not - poor guy.  


If I believe your words I've got to be a damn hero - I survive without thinking 24 hours a day about love, couples and so on - day by day! I'm godlike!  
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:36 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
One last thing - how do you know that Mireille saved Kirika out of the love she feels for her?  

I think she did it for the tea. As she was sitting all alone in her devastated appartment and suffering from withdrawal symptoms, she thought "I really need some hot tea now". So she went to fetch Kirika so Kirika could make her some tea. I'm certain that that was Mireille's motivation. She even clearly says so at the end. "You WILL prepare the tea!" It's the last line Mireille speaks to Kirika in Noir, so that sums up everything, naturally. Surely you can't disagree with this! 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:19 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
I think she did it for the tea. 


Your explaination is better than his one, so....  
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:22 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Oh, I see. Killing the Hater to win over his hatred is a victory of love - and continue to murder and to commit sins is also a step forward for love - hell no....  


This is assuming that Mireille and Kirika stay assassins, which is by no means conclusive. 

Quote: 
Noir didn't actually 'win' at the end of the series. They killed Althena, k, but there are still thousands of Soldats which have just one aim - too see Mireille and Kirika as dead meat. I don't call a future like this a 'victory', actually.... 


Soldats still want to see Mireille and Kirika dead? If so, why not kill them at the Manor? Soldats and M/K have come to a "truce", effectively. Mireille and Kirika leave them alone, and they'll leave M/K alone. They've seen that Mireille and Kirika want nothing to do with their enemies (Altena and her on-crack faction) OR them. The non-Altena faction of the Soldats never really wanted Mireille and Kirika dead. They wanted to stop Mireille and Kirika from becoming Altena's Noir and wiping them out. Now that M/K have killed Altena, where's the threat? 

And re: your comparison to Wedding Peach, it doesn't have to be either "all action and no love" or "all love and no action". Nobody's saying that Noir is a piece of sappy romantic mush just because there are elements of love and hope in the series. 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:28 am    Post subject:    

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Hmm, Kamui, that love and hatred is the Noir theme is obvious - just listen to Altena and Odette Bouquet. A list of scenes where you could see love or hatred would be too long, because it's shown in nearly every episode. 

As last two things to consider. First, the way like they wrap the arms around them at the end. Kirikas arm rests at Mireilles shoulders, because she's too weak. Mireille had to put her arm under Kirikas both shoulders to support her, but she doesn't. Her arm is diagonal over Kirkas back, hand resting at Kirikas waist. I only know this from lovers. And Kirika accepts, no matter that it would ease her pain if Mireille would support her left shoulder . 

The second point - Noir is full of love songs. Secret Game, A Farewell Song, Indio, Kirei na Kanjou and Canta per Me. Some of them are played very often during series, not only in vocal versions, but also in instrumental versions. Why should they do so, if Noir isn't about love?
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:14 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
Soldats still want to see Mireille and Kirika dead? If so, why not kill them at the Manor? 


Because Mireille and Kirika did a 'job' for Les Soldats they couldn't take care of themselfes. They allowed them to escape because they were sure that their knights would kill Noir anyway, somewhen, so.... 

Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
Soldats and M/K have come to a "truce", effectively. Mireille and Kirika leave them alone, and they'll leave M/K alone. 


You're wrong. At the end of the series Noir get told again again that Les Soldats want to see them dead. Anyway, think about it - Mireille and Kirika know almost everything about this underground organisation - if you were a member of Les Soldats, would you allow them to live on and to tell other people what they have seen? I mean, you never can be sure of a person's honesty....  
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:26 am    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
As last two things to consider. First, the way like they wrap the arms around them at the end. Kirikas arm rests at Mireilles shoulders, because she's too weak. Mireille had to put her arm under Kirikas both shoulders to support her, but she doesn't. Her arm is diagonal over Kirkas back, hand resting at Kirikas waist. I only know this from lovers. And Kirika accepts, no matter that it would ease her pain if Mireille would support her left shoulder . 


I can't agree with that - but you knew about my reaction, I suppose. It could be one of the 'bugs' you liked to talk about in another topic, if you're right - can't proove it, because the last DVD didn't get released yet  

FallenAngel wrote: 
The second point - Noir is full of love songs. Secret Game, A Farewell Song, Indio, Kirei na Kanjou and Canta per Me. Some of them are played very often during series, not only in vocal versions, but also in instrumental versions. Why should they do so, if Noir isn't about love? 


Well then - let's make a movie about a murderer who likes to rape his victims before he kills them brutally with a hudge knife - next we'll take some love songs for the OST - now the whole movie is about love - no one gives a damn about the content because it still has got this beautiful, charming Soundtrack - right! Sorry, but....  
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:20 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
Well then - let's make a movie about a murderer who likes to rape his victims before he kills them brutally with a hudge knife - next we'll take some love songs for the OST - now the whole movie is about love - no one gives a damn about the content because it still has got this beautiful, charming Soundtrack - right! Sorry, but....  


Then it would just be nonsensical, just like (to loosely quote Sprite's essay) playing Secret Game in the background during a Mel Gibson/Danny Glover scene in Lethal Weapon. I would be thinking "Whoa! This is wildly out of place!" 

And personally I think you have an all-or-nothing mentality about Noir. Love doesn't preclude a life/action just like action/life doesn't neccesarily preclude love. One can love someone--and wonder how to tell them--and still go to work, cook, swim, work out at the gym, join the Boy Scouts, take out a hit, etc., and vice versa. Also one can go about their day and love someone without realizing it, for example, Mireille. She most likely didn't realize just how much Kirika meant to her until she was gone. 

And about how do we know Mireille pulled Kirika out of the lava pit out of love? Well, Sprite's essay explans how very well. And to quote it again: "Mireille didn't save Kirika with 'I like you'." (Okay okay I'll stop now. My nose is turning brown.) 

And about the Noir/Soldat truce, even if Soldats still wanted Mireille and Kirika dead, they are Noir when the walk out of the Manor, and Soldats respects that becuase they still go by the old laws concerning Noir, and from what I gather, Soldats openly opposing Noir is akin to heresy.
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:52 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
Then it would just be nonsensical, just like (to loosely quote Sprite's essay) playing Secret Game in the background during a Mel Gibson/Danny Glover scene in Lethal Weapon. I would be thinking "Whoa! This is wildly out of place!" 


But that's exactly what fallenangel wrote - if a movie/series got a charming OST, it must be about love - even if it's not  

Bulmafox wrote: 
And about the Noir/Soldat truce, even if Soldats still wanted Mireille and Kirika dead, they are Noir when the walk out of the Manor, and Soldats respects that becuase they still go by the old laws concerning Noir, and from what I gather, Soldats openly opposing Noir is akin to heresy. 


Today's Soldats never believed in the legend of Noir - that's said more often than once during the series - I don't think this fact makes a matter at all. 

I'm just thinking about Mireille's and Kirika's 'daily bread' - they can't continue to protect the other with the own body during a hit, another mistake would be if they're caring more about the other than about themselfes and get shot because they weren't concentrated enough on their objective 

Last edited by Kamui on Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:39 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui, your problem is you don't listen. Bulmafox wrote, that secret game in a Gibson/Glover scene wouldn't make sense. But in Noir, the scenes it is played, makes sense. An OST is always to support the on screen action. And that's also what Sprite wrote in her essay. That Noir OST supports that it is about love. 

And what I wrote about the ending scene is proved. I have the DVD, it's released sine a couple of weeks. In the "stupid people at ebay" thread I've posted how to get. But as I said - You don't listen (or read).
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No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:51 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
Kamui, your problem is you don't listen. 


The same about you. I never said this comment should make sense - it's just a reply on what you told me - if a movie got some love songs in it's OST, forget about the content, it must be about love. 

That's nonsense, of course - I just wanted to go close to the edge again to 'proove' it - Noir got love songs in it's OST, they totally fit the series, BUT this fact don't make the whole assassins-killing-people-content fade away  

FallenAngel wrote: 
And what I wrote about the ending scene is proved. I have the DVD, it's released sine a couple of weeks. In the "stupid people at ebay" thread I've posted how to get. But as I said - You don't listen (or read). 


YOU didn't listen again - I want the GERMAN DVDs, not english, not chinese, german. Noir Vol. 7 just got released two weeks ago - so sorry if I have doubts on that anyone got the last one, when it's not even avaible yet  
 
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noirci
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 67
Location: BC, Canada
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
But that's exactly what fallenangel wrote - if a movie/series got a charming OST, it must be about love - even if it's not   


You also should consider that amongst all the types of music lyrics the creators could have CHOSEN to put in Noir, they CHOSE songs relating to love, loss, and devotion. What does that tell you? 

Note that there was no lyrics chosen like "I'm going to kill these motherf*ckers!" or "She's my killing buddy", or anything similar. 

Music for a drama, even an action drama, is chosen to enhance the effect, not to contrast it. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:51 pm    Post subject:    

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noirci wrote: 
You also should consider that amongst all the types of music lyrics the creators could have CHOSEN to put in Noir, they CHOSE songs relating to love, loss, and devotion. What does that tell you? 


Nothing, actually - read the example above - maybe love songs can support the effect of rapeing and brutal murder as well - do we know? The movie wouldn't be about love eighter, so.... 

noirci wrote: 
Note that there was no lyrics chosen like "I'm going to kill these motherf*ckers!" or "She's my killing buddy", or anything similar. 


Yes, because Noir got drama elements and such 'amok-running-lyrics' would change the whole feeling about the story - and, beside, they wouldn't fit the series at all  
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:32 pm    Post subject:    

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Not ALL lyrics in Noir are about love. What do the other lyrics tell us, and are they relevant to the story? 

Coppelia's casket: about people being like dolls on strings, lambs on an altar, and being unable to find salvation. Also solitude and murder. Seems to fit the series subject matter. 

Salva Nos: probably the most used song in the series. It's a prayer for God to save us from our enemies and give us peace. From the scenes during which this is played, I think it is fairly obvious that the implication was that God is not responding. This seems to tie in well with Altena's explanation of the origin of Noir. 

Any others? So far I have the impression that, for the non-love songs, the lyrics DO have a bearing on the story. 

I think I have to sort of agree with Kamui about the love thing. I think the relationship between the Noir candidates is totally incomparable to what is usually understood by "love" in TV entertainment. Noir are two people bound together by fate who completely understand each other's heart. I can't remember having ever seen anything comparable. How often do we see a love story that has nothing to do with sexual attraction? Can you name a few? So I can understand if he is reluctant to call it love. There is something far deeper than plain old ordinary love going on in Noir... 

Please don't let the debate get nasty, everyone. Thank you. 
 
Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:49 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
I think I have to sort of agree with Kamui about the love thing. I think the relationship between the Noir candidates is totally incomparable to what is usually understood by "love" in TV entertainment. Noir are two people bound together by fate who completely understand each other's heart. I can't remember having ever seen anything comparable. How often do we see a love story that has nothing to do with sexual attraction? Can you name a few? So I can understand if he is reluctant to call it love. There is something far deeper than plain old ordinary love going on in Noir... 


I absolutely agree with you. That's more like my point of view. If there's any love between Mireille and Kirika, than it's much deeper than only sexual attraction. If not, then they're at least very close friends - or partners, whatever you wanna call it. One thing's for sure - they aren't that kind of 'lesbian sluts' as some people around this forum seem to see them  
 
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noirci
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 67
Location: BC, Canada
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:33 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
Nothing, actually - read the example above - maybe love songs can support the effect of rapeing and brutal murder as well - do we know? The movie wouldn't be about love eighter, so.... 

Quote: 
Yes, because Noir got drama elements and such 'amok-running-lyrics' would change the whole feeling about the story - and, beside, they wouldn't fit the series at all  


You contradict yourself. 

First you say that you CAN have music lyrics totally unrelated to the meaning or the effect of the show. 

Then you say that you CAN'T have those 'amok-running-lyrics' because they DON'T fit the show. 

... 

Essentially, my point is that the creators of Noir are not stupid. 

No self-respecting filmmaker, anime or otherwise, would place music and lyrics in their movie without believing it has some sort of relevance to the setting or the character's thoughts. You are saying anybody can place love lyrics in a scene of brutal violence, but if you were in the creator's position, knowing your reputation as a filmmaker is at stake, would you?

Last edited by noirci on Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:46 pm    Post subject:    

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noirci wrote: 
You contradict yourself. 

First you say that you CAN have music lyrics totally unrelated to the meaning or the effect of the show. 

Then you say that you CAN'T have those 'amok-running-lyrics' because they DON'T fit the show. 


Not really. 

I just wanted to proove - once again - that there could also be love songs in a movie which is all about bloody murder - maybe they would fit there, we don't know - anyway, the film IS STILL NOT ABOUT LOVE, althrough - that was the meaning of at last 3 or 4 of my previous postings in this topic  

In Noir those songs fits the atmosphere totally - I never disagreed with that. 

So, where do I contradict myself?  
 
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noirci
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 67
Location: BC, Canada
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:04 pm    Post subject:    

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The issue is not the music (rhythm, tempo) in relation to the series. The entire debate is regarding the LYRICS. 

(see my post revision) 

The lyrics are written FOR the series. Nothing is taken "off the rack" as far as I know. The creators placed lyrics in the show in order to enhance the effect, just as any filmmaker would if they were having music custom made for their product. 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:43 pm    Post subject:    

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If their relationship/connection was intended to be a romantic one, without a doubt, then I believe the creators would have said so, instead of telling us to draw up our own conclusions about their relationship...

Last edited by Hikari on Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:42 pm; edited 2 times in total 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:33 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
they aren't that kind of 'lesbian sluts' as some people around this forum seem to see them  

It is necessary to assume that they are, for the purpose of hentai fanfiction and fanart.  And it is also understandable that the real-life 'lesbian sluts' want to "adopt" K&M's realtionship, because it is such a deep one. (Kamui, I trust you were not implying that all lesbians are sluts?) 

But I absolutely agree with you that Noir is not about lesbian sexual attraction. Even Noirci agreed with that, I think. It is not about the sex. If Mireille had been a wrinkled toothless 90 year old granny, it would hardly make a difference  Noir explores a lot of subjects, including fate, choice, reality and memory, clashing systems of morality, and some quite complex religious themes, and it doesn't try to give an easy answer, because there are no easy answers to these questions. So we have to think about it for ourselves. It is definitely not a "love conquers all" kind of silliness. 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:20 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
YOU didn't listen again - I want the GERMAN DVDs, not english, not chinese, german. Noir Vol. 7 just got released two weeks ago - so sorry if I have doubts on that anyone got the last one, when it's not even avaible yet 

I have the German DVD's - all, #1 to #8, #8 was released at 31. August. I ordered mine at Amazon, like I proposed to you, and received it at 11. September. I have scanned the cover as proof http://home.tiscali.de/jhtdata/Volume8.jpg 

FacelessMinion wrote: 
But I absolutely agree with you that Noir is not about lesbian sexual attraction. Even Noirci agreed with that, I think. It is not about the sex. If Mireille had been a wrinkled toothless 90 year old granny, it would hardly make a difference Wink Noir explores a lot of subjects, including fate, choice, reality and memory, clashing systems of morality, and some quite complex religious themes, and it doesn't try to give an easy answer, because there are no easy answers to these questions. So we have to think about it for ourselves. It is definitely not a "love conquers all" kind of silliness. 
 

Hmm, some points to agree, some to disagree. For sure Noir has more than one theme. I've posted often enough that the Noir figures have mostly multiple reasons for doing something. So all things you propose are in it, but also the love conquers all theme. For sure it's not about lesbian sexual attraction, it's about love, including sexual attraction. And I don't see it as about lesbian love, even if it technical is. It is about love in generell. It would have worked as well as if for example Mireille was a man, but Noir are two Maiden. One example for sexual attraction I've already shown - the Chloe kiss. Kirika attracted from Mirelle for example we see at Ulgia beach. 
Mirelle: The sea is so calmed. 
Kirika: Yes. 
Mireille: Beautyful. 
Kirika: ::Looks at Mireille:: 
So if it is just friend or sister base, why should Kirika look at Mireille if Mireille says "beautyfull" to the sea? 

And Kamui, the assassins killing people theme is of course inside Noir - it's the bearer of the story. But if you only see this, it becomes really flat.
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No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:15 am    Post subject:    

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Meanwhile I managed it to make screenshots from German #8. Maybe the scanned cover isn't convincing, so I made picture from menu 

http://home.tiscali.de/jhtdata/Volume8Menu.jpg 
And one from the final scene. 
http://home.tiscali.de/jhtdata/KirMir.jpg
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:49 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Kamui, I trust you were not implying that all lesbians are sluts? 


Erm - are we talking about Mireille and Kirika or about all the lesbians around the world? So you can guess what the answer is  

FacelessMinion wrote: 
It is definitely not a "love conquers all" kind of silliness. 


So there's at least one which view I can support - I totally agree with you again, faceless  
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:39 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
I have the German DVD's - all, #1 to #8, #8 was released at 31. August. I ordered mine at Amazon, like I proposed to you, and received it at 11. September. 


On Amazon? They didn't even have Vol. 7 a couple of weeks ago - but damn, I don't want to discuss with you if you've got Vol. 8 or not  

FallenAngel wrote: 
So all things you propose are in it, but also the love conquers all theme. For sure it's not about lesbian sexual attraction, it's about love, including sexual attraction. And I don't see it as about lesbian love, even if it technical is. It is about love in generell. It would have worked as well as if for example Mireille was a man, but Noir are two Maiden. 


You know what I'm replying now, I suppose. The love doesn't conquer the series, it never did. It's one of the many topics, but that's it. The dominant topic is still the assassin-theme (that's what the series is about - so it IS definitely dominating) and the story around it  

FallenAngel wrote: 
And Kamui, the assassins killing people theme is of course inside Noir - it's the bearer of the story. But if you only see this, it becomes really flat. 


I'm not only seeing this topic, but it's the most important element in the series, no doubt about it. 
 
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Tenjou-kun
Pezzant


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Ohtori
 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:16 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
f their relationship/connection was intended to be a romantic one, without a doubt, then I believe the creators would have said so, instead of telling us to draw up our own conclusions about their relationship...  


I definitely understand what you're saying, but I don't think the directors wanted to come out too heavy-hitting on the whole issue. The fact that they left Noir as open-ended as they did shows that, in my opinion, they were hoping to attract a fairly wide audience. And if they made Noir an exclusively "lesbian" show, then they're narrowing that audience quite a bit. Basically I think they wanted to create something pretty much anyone could enjoy, and that's why you can freely interpret the ending. I mean, think of all those shows with rigid, set-in-stone endings that totally suck.  With Noir, there IS no rigid ending, so you can pretty much create your ideal scenario without it conflicting with the conclusion. And that, I think, is one of the best aspects of Noir, regardless of what everyone feels the true ending is. The directors don't want to come out and say anything because that cheapens the intended effect. 
 
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noirci
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 67
Location: BC, Canada
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:12 am    Post subject:    

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Tenjou-kun wrote: 
And that, I think, is one of the best aspects of Noir, regardless of what everyone feels the true ending is. The directors don't want to come out and say anything because that cheapens the intended effect. 


So that people (like K...) who believe homosexuals are deviant spawns of the Devil can also enjoy Noir. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:40 am    Post subject:    

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noirci wrote: 
So that people (like K...) who believe homosexuals are deviant spawns of the Devil can also enjoy Noir. 


Did I write something like that? I can't remember when.... 

I simply doubt that Mireille and Kirika have a romantic or sexual relationship deeper than friends, for many reasons - that's it. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:43 am    Post subject:    

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I don't want to add to the bashing of Kamui here, but I do want to point out that this: 

Kamui wrote: 
I simply doubt that Mireille and Kirika have a romantic or sexual relationship deeper than friends, for many reasons - that's it. 


is kind of a contradiction with this: 

Quote: 
I absolutely agree with you. That's more like my point of view. If there's any love between Mireille and Kirika, than it's much deeper than only sexual attraction. 


So is it deep or not?  

I don't think Noir is "only" about love, or that it's the main theme. I also don't think it's "only" about assassination, or that it's the main theme. I think the main theme is the same main theme that most film noir (sorry, I don't know how to pluralise it... film noires? filmes noires?) have - characters living in the underworld trying to find some small semblance of hope, redemption or reason to live in a world that seems enshrouded by the darkness. Noir is a character drama, for crying out loud. It's not an action movie. It's not a romance movie. It has strong elements of both. It's not about the guns or about the (potential for) hot sex - though some people like those aspects more than others.  It's about characters, and how they grow. Saying Noir is "about" love or assassins is like saying Eva is "about" teenage awkward romance or giant robots. It's not, it's about people and how fucked up they can be in a fucked up world. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:29 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
I don't know how to pluralise it... film noires? filmes noires? 

films noirs  
Barring exceptions, the plural is shown by the noun + s, the adjective just follows the noun; feminin + e, pluriel + s, feminin pluriel + es 
un film noir - deux films noirs 
une vierge noire - deux vierges noires 
We now return you to your scheduled programming... 
 
Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:13 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
I don't want to add to the bashing of Kamui here, but I do want to point out that this: 

Kamui wrote: 
I simply doubt that Mireille and Kirika have a romantic or sexual relationship deeper than friends, for many reasons - that's it. 


is kind of a contradiction with this: 

Quote: 
I absolutely agree with you. That's more like my point of view. If there's any love between Mireille and Kirika, than it's much deeper than only sexual attraction. 


So is it deep or not?  


It's not a actually a contradiction, again. IF THERE'S ANY LOVE BETWEEN THEM, it's deeper than sexual attraction. But we don't know it for sure, so.... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:24 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
It's not a actually a contradiction, again. IF THERE'S ANY LOVE BETWEEN THEM, it's deeper than sexual attraction. But we don't know it for sure, so.... 


But look at those two quotes you wrote. In one, you say that they don't have any deeper relationship than a friends/sisters one. Implying that sexual relationships are deeper than relationships between friends. In the other, you say that their relationship is deeper than a sexual relationship, implying that a sexual relationship isn't deep. Is sexual love deep or shallow, I'm asking?  
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:15 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
But look at those two quotes you wrote. In one, you say that they don't have any deeper relationship than a friends/sisters one. Implying that sexual relationships are deeper than relationships between friends. In the other, you say that their relationship is deeper than a sexual relationship, implying that a sexual relationship isn't deep. Is sexual love deep or shallow, I'm asking?  


A sexual relationship mustn't actually be deep (think of one-night-stands ). I don't think that Mireille and Kirika have such a relationship. But IF there's any kind of connection close to love between them, it's deeper than any kind of sexual relationship or romance (I mentioned this because of the topic - it means, in short, that Mireille's some kind of slut and that they've a - maybe sexual - relationship). 

I hope you understand my view now  
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:09 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
A sexual relationship mustn't actually be deep (think of one-night-stands ). I don't think that Mireille and Kirika have such a relationship. But IF there's any kind of connection close to love between them, it's deeper than any kind of sexual relationship or romance (I mentioned this because of the topic - it means, in short, that Mireille's some kind of slut and that they've a - maybe sexual - relationship). 


A one-night stand isn't a relationship, it's a one-night stand.  I just don't know what you mean by a deeper-than-sexual relationship between them, since you said before that their relationship is "only a friends/sisters one, not as deep as a sexual one". What do you define as deeper than sexual? And if it is deeper than sexual, can it not encompass the sexual as well? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:21 am    Post subject:    

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I won't pretend to have a clue about what Kamui is thinking, but I notice a lot of terms with greatly varying meanings are being used here; love, friendship, deep, sexual relations... 

Assuming we are all talking about more or less the same thing, I would propose that a sexual relationship can be said to be deep as in "deeply engrossing". Surfing on the hormone wave. Being high on each other's presence and stuff. 

On the other hand, a friend/sister relationship can be said to be deep in that you know and accept each other, both the good and the bad, and know what you can expect from each other, like when you crash their HD they will curse you for weeks but you know you can still rely on them to come to your rescue if you need them.  

Mireille and Kirika seem to have more of the latter (at the end at least), if there are traces of the former during the series we don't get to see much evidence for them... if they develop a sexual relation afterwards, it may lack a little of the... rush? (I hate to say depth here) of a relation that started out based on sexual attraction, perhaps. 

If that makes any sense... 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:57 pm    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
What do you define as deeper than sexual? And if it is deeper than sexual, can it not encompass the sexual as well? 


Oh damn. Once and for all - I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THERE'S ANY KIND OF ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP OR SEXUAL ATTRACTION BETWEEN MIREILLE AND KIRIKA. But IF there's one, it'd definitely not be like a regular romance (I'm talking about the usual I-love-you-darling-love-you-too-honey-couples  ) - I don't even think it would get sexual at all. Their emotions would be much deeper - some kind of understanding the other without words. Some kind of feeling one with the other. 

(I'm not actually a loving, emotional person, so feel free to ignore the things listened above if they're total nonsense  ) 

If you don't understand my argumentation now - find your own solution. I explained it extended enough, I think  

faceless - you don't need to pretend it, you seem to have more than a clue. Especially what you wrote about the deep of a frind/sister relationship is exactly what I tried to explain in two of my postings. 

I don't think that a sexual relationship is a deep one, but - that's what you must agree with - it's still deeper then a regular friendship. 

By the way - also one-nights-stands can built up/can be seen as some kind of 'relationship' (alright, maybe I didn't pick out the right word - nevermind  ) - not actually one to survive for long, but.... 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:24 am    Post subject:    

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I have a question for both Kamui and Hikari. If either Kirika or Mireille were a man, would you be so quick to dismiss the possibility of them having a romantic or sexual relationship, during or after the series? 

Just never mind me if the answer's yes... 
_________________
Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:12 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
I have a question for both Kamui and Hikari. If either Kirika or Mireille were a man, would you be so quick to dismiss the possibility of them having a romantic or sexual relationship, during or after the series? 

Urk. I don't think that would work... 

male Kirika-replacement: My name is Ikari Shinji, please make a pilgrimage to the past with me. 
Mireille: BLAM! BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM! STOMP! ... little creep! 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:14 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 

male Kirika-replacement: My name is Ikari Shinji, please make a pilgrimage to the past with me. 
Mireille: BLAM! BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM! STOMP! ... little creep! 


Ooh, fanart idea.
_________________
Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:15 pm    Post subject:    

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I can't understand why some wish for the Corsican wild rose and the Japanese Lotus flower such a dark future. No matter if they continue with being assassins or not, with their past they have no chance for "normal" relationships. They have wasted too much lives to not have serious enemies, which will send assassins after them. And some of them are really powerfull organizations, like Cosa Nostra, Chinese Triades and Les Soldats. You can see it in several Noir episodes - revenge can come years later, and often the beloved get involved (ep.6, ep.13, Mireilles personal revenge, etc). 

And I trie to imagine how for example Kirika will tell a possible boyfriend:" I'm a former assassin. So don't wonder if bullets will spread around us. And I feel deep regrets about what I've done, so I get sometimes deep depressions with suicidal tendencies. And other times I will change in an affectionless state, if I'm too stressed. But love me nonetheless." 

And if Mireille will have no casual sex as mentioned in some posts, and Kirika for sure will have no casual sex, what should they do? Should they stay asexual, lifetime virgins? Or should they do it for themselfs, while sharing the same bed? Being satisfied by this poor replacement, if a loved one is only an armlength away? Not being kissed? Not feeling the touch of another hand? It's much different than the own, much more intensive, especially if its from a loved one. Ever tried to tickle yourself? It doesn't work! And should they really miss the warmth of another human body for ever? 
_________________
No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:01 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
If either Kirika or Mireille were a man, would you be so quick to dismiss the possibility of them having a romantic or sexual relationship, during or after the series? 


I'd be even quicker to dismiss the possebility  
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:18 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
I can't understand why some wish for the Corsican wild rose and the Japanese Lotus flower such a dark future.  

What are you drinking? I want some, too. 
Quote: 
And I trie to imagine how for example Kirika will tell a possible boyfriend 

He'll be dead by the end of the episode, so he'd better enjoy it while he can... 
Quote: 
And should they really miss the warmth of another human body for ever? 

Mireille's appartment has central heating...  
 
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Tenjou-kun
Pezzant


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Ohtori
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:41 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
I'd be even quicker to dismiss the possebility 


Sometimes I wonder if we're all really watching the same show... 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:54 pm    Post subject:    

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Tenjou-kun wrote: 
Sometimes I wonder if we're all really watching the same show... 


Of course we do  

Is it a crime to think of Noir like they're STRAIGHT MAIDEN? Do they have to be lesbian like in Hentai movies? I slowly start to believe that the answer to this question is yes....  
 
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Tenjou-kun
Pezzant


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Ohtori
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:17 pm    Post subject:    

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No, they don't have to be; I was simply thinking out loud, my mistake.  And it's worth mentioning that no M/K fan thinks they're specifically lesbians, we just think they're in love. 
 
noirci
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 67
Location: BC, Canada
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:01 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
Erm - are we talking about Mireille and Kirika or about all the lesbians around the world? So you can guess what the answer is  


Going back to this if you don't mind, I have a question for Kamui. You can consider this an off-topic social question if you wish. 

I am very interested to hear what your exact opinion is regarding homosexual relationships. As an example: What your stance would be if 2 of your good friends of the same gender fell in love with each other, whether it be male or female. Would you support them? Would you still be their friend? 

What would be your vote if they had a referendum on whether to allow gay marriages to be included in a legal definition? 

If you have seen them, what is your perspective on movies such as Sweden's "F*cking Amal" or Germany's "Aimee and Jaguar"? 

Be honest please, and I won't pass judgement on your response. It is just something I am very curious about. 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
If either Kirika or Mireille were a man, would you be so quick to dismiss the possibility of them having a romantic or sexual relationship, during or after the series? 


One woman and one man, their souls bound together through fate? The show would have to change a lot for that to work... 

Truth is, I think neither one of them are in a place where they are even thinking or caring about being romantic/sexual with anyone. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:34 am    Post subject:    

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noirci wrote: 
I am very interested to hear what your exact opinion is regarding homosexual relationships. As an example: What your stance would be if 2 of your good friends of the same gender fell in love with each other, whether it be male or female. Would you support them? Would you still be their friend? 


I don't know if I'd support them, because I don't support straight couples eighter, so.... 

I'm just thinking it's not my buisness at all - so I'm trying not to get involved in any 'love stories' of my friends. 

Yes, of course he/she would be my friend, althrough. There wouldn't be a reason to quit our friendship. 

noirci wrote: 
What would be your vote if they had a referendum on whether to allow gay marriages to be included in a legal definition? 


I won't comment this, because this discussion would go on for months then  

noirci wrote: 
If you have seen them, what is your perspective on movies such as Sweden's "F*cking Amal" or Germany's "Aimee and Jaguar"? 


Sorry, I didn't see them, so I can't give you a statement about both films. 

I'm telling you again - I don't care if SOMEONE is homosexual or not - but I think that Mireille, Kirika and Chloe are straight - damn, do I really have to explain this view? I can't believe it....  
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:01 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Quote: 
I can't understand why some wish for the Corsican wild rose and the Japanese Lotus flower such a dark future.  

What are you drinking? I want some, too. 
 

What are you expecting? Something brewed from fly agarics or similar?  
Sorry to disappoint you, I can't give you any receipe. It just happens if some of my deep emotions break through the ice at the surface.  I hope this will never happen with the dark ones....
_________________
No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:06 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
... - I don't care if SOMEONE is homosexual or not - but I think that Mireille, Kirika and Chloe are straight - damn, do I really have to explain this view? I can't believe it....  

Yeah, and because of this Chloe kisses her at the bathing scene and embraces her as they are naked. Do you so with friends of same gender? 
_________________
No Fate! - Sarah Connor, Terminator II 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:12 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
Kamui wrote: 
... - I don't care if SOMEONE is homosexual or not - but I think that Mireille, Kirika and Chloe are straight - damn, do I really have to explain this view? I can't believe it....  

Yeah, and because of this Chloe kisses her at the bathing scene and embraces her as they are naked. Do you so with friends of same gender?  


Don't forget on the lips, at length (is my nose changing color again?  ). 

Tenjou-kun wrote: 
No, they don't have to be; I was simply thinking out loud, my mistake.  And it's worth mentioning that no M/K fan thinks they're specifically lesbians, we just think they're in love. 


Yeah. Mireille might be bi for all we know...
_________________
Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:09 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
Yeah, and because of this Chloe kisses her at the bathing scene and embraces her as they are naked. Do you so with friends of same gender? 


Chloe might have loved Kirika, but also on a deeper level then the sexual one. I also think that Chloe is a 'real maiden' - she never felt the love given to her by a man - so this is a REAL bad example  

Beside, I'm male, so - of course not - but girls are different in many ways, as we all know.... *thinking about the daily kiss-left-kiss-right-I-love-you-hug-scenes I saw at school*  
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:13 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 

Beside, I'm male, so - of course not - but girls are different in many ways, as we all know.... *thinking about the daily kiss-left-kiss-right-I-love-you-hug-scenes I saw at school*  


Any daily kiss-on-the-lips-I-love-you-hug scenes? 
_________________
Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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rin
Soldat


Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 60

 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:21 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 

Chloe might have loved Kirika, but also on a deeper level then the sexual one. I also think that Chloe is a 'real maiden' - she never felt the love given to her by a man - so this is a REAL bad example  


Suddenly I am reminded of the time when someone on a different Noir discussion website said something like, "Before they love boys, girls [referring to Chloe] love girls with great passion." (I'm sorry I can't get the exact quote right now, but that site seems to be down at the moment. =/) That person may not have meant that comment the way I read it - that Chloe's lesbianity is just a phase, and she's actually straight - but it rubbed me the wrong way. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:26 pm    Post subject:    

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rin wrote: 
Chloe's lesbianity is just a phase, and she's actually straight 

<sarcasm>Damn right. EVERYONE KNOWS that ALL lesbians are really straight, they just haven't met A REAL MAN yet...</sarcasm> 
 
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rin
Soldat


Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 60

 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:42 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 

<sarcasm>Damn right. EVERYONE KNOWS that ALL lesbians are really straight, they just haven't met A REAL MAN yet...</sarcasm> 


<more sarcasm>Exactly. All they need is to have their hymen broken by the love of a good man, and poof! They will discover their True Heterosexuality, marry the man, and live happily ever after.</more sarcasm> 

Seriously though, how can someone say that Chloe is straight? There has been no evidence in the show to prove that she is attracted to men. She could be asexual for all you know. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:54 pm    Post subject:    

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rin wrote: 
Seriously though, how can someone say that Chloe is straight? There has been no evidence in the show to prove that she is attracted to men. She could be asexual for all you know. 


I can, because of the reason given above - Chloe doesn't know what it's like to love anyone but Althena. As I mentioned, I don't even think she loves Kirika because of her sexual attraction, it's more like a teenager who's crazy about a pop star, in a sense.... 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:57 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
I can, because of the reason given above - Chloe doesn't know what it's like to love anyone but Althena. As I mentioned, I don't even think she loves Kirika because of her sexual attraction, it's more like a teenager who's crazy about a pop star, in a sense.... 

Once again I have to sort of agree with Kamui  We see no hints that Chloe is attracted to men, but that could be because we never see her meet any suitable men in a context were this might occur. I do think her attraction to Kirika is not based on wanting Kirika's body  But I doubt she is averse to the idea. 

The pop star example is a bit unfortunate. How many of these teenagers knew that pop star since they were children? 

And frankly, we could never be sure because Noir is not the kind of series that is explicit about such things. Was Kirika sexually interested in Milosh, and started painting to get his attention? Or was she trying to get close to him only so she could observe his brush technique? (I think the way she is happy to get him a present shows she at least likes him... does that prove Kirika is straight?) 

The kind of "proof" that could convincingly persuade anyone either way is only found in hentai fanfics, not in the series  
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:19 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
I don't know if I'd support them, because I don't support straight couples eighter, so.... 


I actually suspected that this was the case; I never thought you were against homosexuality, you just don't like relationships of any kind. :3 

Quote: 
Seriously though, how can someone say that Chloe is straight?... 

Quote: 
I can, because of the reason given above - Chloe doesn't know what it's like to love anyone but Althena. 

 


That sounds an awful lot like the "if you haven't actively had a homosexual experience, you have to be straight by default" idea. Chloe hasn't shown explicit love for anyone yet (if you, er, don't count the Hot Springs Makeout as explicit) so, as Faceless says, she may well be asexual. You can't call her "definitely straight" because there is no evidence. There's MORE evidence for her being gay - but either way, just because someone isn't overtly gay doesn't make them straight until proven otherwise. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:26 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
Chloe hasn't shown explicit love for anyone yet (if you, er, don't count the Hot Springs Makeout as explicit) so, as Faceless says, she may well be asexual. 

Rin said that, not me. I'm too vague on what "asexual" is supposed to mean to comment, though. I do think Chloe shows love, but like everyone else in the series, no overtly sexual expressions of it, except for that pond scene, where to me it is fairly obvious she is eager to take the "union of souls" part of Noir to the physical level. It's not enough for me to say that people who think Chloe is straight must be wrong, though. 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:57 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
*thinking about the daily kiss-left-kiss-right-I-love-you-hug-scenes I saw at school*  

That's a little bit far away from that what we see at the bathing scene. 
FacelessMinion wrote: 
I do think Chloe shows love, but like everyone else in the series, no overtly sexual expressions of it, except for that pond scene, where to me it is fairly obvious she is eager to take the "union of souls" part of Noir to the physical level. 

But they cut the scene as they still are in embrace. It's normaly done if they can't show more because it would be rated as porn. 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:42 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
But they cut the scene as they still are in embrace. It's normaly done if they can't show more because it would be rated as porn.  

Seriously, I don't think Kirika was in the mood for more... 
 
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:56 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Seriously, I don't think Kirika was in the mood for more... 
 

In the scene after, as they dress up, Kirika looks very relaxed...  
And Chloe is still admiring the fork.
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Tenjou-kun
Pezzant


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Ohtori
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:22 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
The kind of "proof" that could convincingly persuade anyone either way is only found in hentai fanfics, not in the series 


I dunno; for me, watching the whole letter bit in episode 23 felt like being hit over the head with a sledgehammer. Or in other words, it was REALLY obvious that there was more than simple friendship to the M/K dynamic. ^^; But again, that's just me. 

And once again, I agree with Sprite - I think there's much more evidence to prove Chloe is gay. But I don't think her actual orientation is a big deal, and on the same token, I don't think there's much of a point in debating M & K's orientations, either. ^^; You can't really choose who you fall in love with, so some people will have a romantic experience that totally defies their usual preference. So maybe the Noir girls fall into that kind of category, who knows. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:40 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Seriously, I don't think Kirika was in the mood for more... 


I agree with you. 'Dark Kirika' isn't actually the right one for a 'hot romance' - when Chloe kissed her, she showed no reation, no emotions - she didn't even speak to her afterwards - so....  

But, fallenangel, I've got to apologise to you about two things. 

First - I spotted Noir Vol. 8 on DVD not too long ago - I couldn't believe it - the people at OVA needed so much time for the release of DVD Vol. 7 - and then, two weeks later, Vol. 8 is still avaible? Without any kind of promotion? They didn't even named a release date when Vol. 7 came out - well, whatever - you were right. Sorry about my critics  

Next - the discussion about Althena's plans - I watched episode 26 on VIVA yesterday - and it changed my view about her obsessions. When I first watched episode 26 I had to pack my bags because I was going to leave for holiday on the next morning, so I didn't have the time to watch it carefully enough. I still start to think that Althena definitely wanted Noir to destroy Les Soldats, because she didn't want Mireille and Kirika to become the 'black maiden' which protects the organisation, she tried to fulfull Grand Retour and die in order to get a pure Noir-Team, a pairing which is not infected by the hunger for power, like today's Soldats are - she wanted the two maiden to rule over the corrupted - so - damn, she really wanted Noir to play 'judge' - I'm still asking myself what this fact has got to do with their fate (which is that they become the status of legendary assassins - but assassins are killing for money - as Mireille said in episode 1 - 'My job is not to help people' - Althena's plans for Grand Retour have nothing to do with the ceremony itself, because Noir lose the dark shadow which is hanging above them and, of course, the permission to name themselfes assassins - their new curse has nothing to do with assassination anymore), but it doesn't matter in the end. 

Back to topic. 

sprite - I never said I don't like relationships at all - I just don't want to get involved in others' love stories - expecially not in those of my friends. That's what I wanted to say.... 

Alright, let me give you another example - Chloe never tried to have any kind of sexual contact with Kirika - and Kirika is straight, of course - I think that her meetings with Milosh proved it - she really liked him - if he wouldn't have died and wouldn't have got a mercenary again, maybe they'd be together - we'll never know either - anyway, mention the pop-star-thing I wrote about a few replys ago - it fits pertty good, because Chloe thinks of Kirika like she's the 'star of assassination' - or something like that. She kissed Kirika because of the same reason a groupie would kiss his/her favorite 'VIP' - so the kiss isn't actually a Prove for Chloe's homosexual feelings. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:50 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
She kissed Kirika because of the same reason a groupie would kiss his/her favorite 'VIP' - so the kiss isn't actually a Prove for Chloe's homosexual feelings. 

I think there is a lot more to Chloe's affection, but I agree with you that the series allows your interpretation, and that there is no proof within the series that could convince you that there are lesbians in Noir. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 277
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:53 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
She kissed Kirika because of the same reason a groupie would kiss his/her favorite 'VIP' - so the kiss isn't actually a Prove for Chloe's homosexual feelings. 


As Faceless said, there's really no debating this one, because you're convinced.... but I just want to take a quick poll of people here as to who would kiss their favourite celebrity who was of the opposite gender from the one they are attracted to, on the lips. For example, if you are female and 100% attracted to guys (not bisexual), would you kiss a girl pop star on the lips and hold it for several seconds? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:11 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
but I just want to take a quick poll of people here as to who would kiss their favourite celebrity who was of the opposite gender from the one they are attracted to, on the lips. 

This is I think a culture-specific thing, so I would hesitate to conclude anything from it. For example, a few centuries ago here on the continent, kissing on the lips was the common greeting between men, having the same meaning as a handshake today (would be "interesting" to see the reactions to such accuracy in a historical movie). On the other hand, in Japan not so long ago a handshake or almost any form of physical contact would be considered an inconceivable intimacy between strangers. Even today we see such differences between northern and southern europe. 

Perhaps Chloe was just following the "medieval lifestyle"... 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:31 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 

Seriously, I don't think Kirika was in the mood for more... 


But that doesn't mean Chloe wasn't...  

And about the open ending, I just *have* to say this. The ending is open because the creators love toying with our minds. This *is* Bee Train, after all; the creators of .hack, Avenger, and Madlax.
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:06 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
This *is* Bee Train, after all; the creators of .hack, Avenger, and Madlax. 

And Lain! Let's not forget Lain! (I always wanted a chance to say that  ) 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:20 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Bulmafox wrote: 
This *is* Bee Train, after all; the creators of .hack, Avenger, and Madlax. 

And Lain! Let's not forget Lain! (I always wanted a chance to say that  ) 


 You're kidding me. Bee Train created Lain?
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:25 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
You're kidding me. Bee Train created Lain? 

Did I misremember? Isn't that what the "to BE continued" referred to? 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:30 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Bulmafox wrote: 
You're kidding me. Bee Train created Lain? 

Did I misremember? Isn't that what the "to BE continued" referred to? 


I found a page that listed several DVDs for sale and included what studio they were made by and Bee Train was not listed with Lain. http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&sub=All&id=paska 

...unless you're joking. You *are* joking, right? 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:40 pm    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
...unless you're joking. You *are* joking, right?  

Sorry, I think I got confused just now. Lain was by Pioneer. I was just so exited to be able to say "let's not forget Lain" that I didn't think twice. My bad...  The Be in to BE continued refers to Be, inc, not Bee Train...

Last edited by FacelessMinion on Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total 
 
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Bulmafox
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Jesusland
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:42 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Bulmafox wrote: 
...unless you're joking. You *are* joking, right?  

I was just so exited to be able to say "let's not forget Lain" that I didn't think twice.  


No, let's all love Lain. Let's all love Lain. Love Lain Love Lain LoveLain LoveLain *goes faster and faster until she melts down.* 


Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 394
Location: Germany
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:27 pm    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
'Dark Kirika' isn't actually the right one for a 'hot romance' - when Chloe kissed her, she showed no reation, no emotions - she didn't even speak to her afterwards - so....  

But, fallenangel, I've got to apologise to you about two things. 
 

I don't really believe that it happened, but I've seen that they left it open.... and Arrghhh, I can't get the pictures out of my mind. Chloe carrassing and manipulating Kirika who shows only slight physical reactions, little higher pulse, little deeper breathing, no real response to Chloe, but getting her hight with a deep breath. 

And regarding the apology - never mind, in the beginning I also did some strange discussions, based on screwed up memories. And if you could open your heart to love and relationships, you could see that I'm right with the most other things 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:02 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
And if you could open your heart to love and relationships, you could see that I'm right with the most other things  


No, of course not *laughs* 

I apologised because I knew that I've definitely been wrong - be in this discussion there's still no 'right' or 'wrong' - there are only one side and another - I'm standing on the opposite of yours - so I don't think I'll agree with you about the relationship of the Noir saplings at all - even if hell would freeze tomorrow I wouldn't  
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:28 pm    Post subject:    

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I agree with you about Chloe, Kamui. She's the one person from the series who made me wonder, when she kissed Kirika, but like I said before, she's much more complicated than that, as is that scene. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:39 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
....I'm beginning to think Kirika has the "being killed by your Goddess" thing going on here, to reference the other thread. :3 


This was my second post on a Noir-forum: 
http://p067.ezboard.com/fnoirdiscussionforumfrm3.showMessage?topicID=95.topic 
Seems I haven't said anything really new for a long time now...  ;; 

I feel like I've been poisoned... If this turns out to be my last message, I think the herring did it... this sucks. Can't someone come stab me with a fork or something? 
 
Ross
Forum Minion


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Virginia Beach, VA USA
 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:12 pm    Post subject: Noir training, the blank years   

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In ep 24 we find out that the three saplings were to be grown in different soil so that the strongest would survive. Chloe also tells Kirika that they lived together only a short time, and that they had to train in different places from each other. Chloe further elaborates that Kirika's Corsica mission was BEFORE they parted for their individual training. 

So we have to assume that both (or at least Kirika) recieved some initial training first (pretty basic stuff) at the manor, then (after the Corsican hit) proceeded on their own way for more training. 

Chloe also mentions the "tasks" of Kirika in a plural sense. So Kirika had done more than one task for Altena before going into actual training. 

While it's generally assumed that Kirika's memory loss is connected to the Corsican hit, there are several intervening years, and possibly other tasks before and during that training period. 

This begs the question: Is Kirika's memory loss really connected to the assasination of Mirielle's family, or did Kirika just finally loose it on a mission but remembered Mirielle, etc so she contacted her? 

Ross 
 
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SwordSkill
Kind Mother


Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 257
Location: Philippines
 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:47 am    Post subject:    

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the trouble with Kirika is that she doesn't even know herself (which makes us trying to know her much more difficult XD ). i guess if you boil it down to the basic level, the question is, when did Kirika actually lose her memory? (and did she actually lose it unconsciously or consciously or was it induced by someone else or what?) 

i've always thought that the memory loss came much later after the Corsica hit. nothing seemed to be wrong with Kirika before or after the Corsican hit, or so the series seems to imply. 

and yeah, it has always bothered me...how in the world did Kirika manage to get hold of the right person in the first episode...in this case, Mireille? and significantly, WHY Mireille? it seemed to be too perfect to be chalked up to coincidence, so apparently, Kirika did know something more than she was willing to tell Mireille in the first few episodes.
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Ross
Forum Minion


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Virginia Beach, VA USA
 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 6:02 am    Post subject:    

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Well, it sort of brings up a theory of mine that fits most of the circumstances and also fits in with most other people's theories. Sotra ties them all together somewhat. 

My theory is that she has multiple personalities at the begining of the show. Follow me on the path. 

We know she doesn't remember much in EP 1. She might have an idea, she might know more than she's saying, she might only remember bits, whatever. The end result is the same, that Kirika 1(partial memory) is missing something. We also know that this condition was recent, in that she woke up, looked through the house, got chased in the bamboo, popped three soldats, and e-mailed Mirielle. That couldn't have taken but so long. This is the Kirika personality shown in most of the series. 

We know that Kirika 2(Amok, batosi, berserker, etc. The one with the odd eyes that shows up after the rooftop gunfight) behaves much differently than Kirika 1. In fact a couple of times Kirika 1 and Kirika 2 swtich back and forth, for instance when Mirielle calls her name, at the end of the Mirielle and Kirika shootout, in the soldat villiage, etc. 

The last personality is Kirika 3 (ep 26, after everything is done). Kirika 3 is Yummura Kirika. The Kirika that accepts the sins committed by her other personalites, the Kirika that now feels sad at killing, the Kirika that killed Chloe, and....the Kirika that killed Mirielle's parents. That's right. I'm saying that Kirika 3 (normal Kirika) is the one that dropped the hammer on Mirielle's family. 

In ep 26, just before diving to take the bullet for Mirielle, she flashes back and remembers Odet telling her to take care of Mirielle. Take a good look at that scene on slow motion. Odet is seen telling her this, then Kirika is seen, Beretta aimed, listening to this. As the words hit her, her eyes wellup with tears! I think the young Kirika and Kirika 3 are one in the same personality. She can remember and can be saddened at killing. 

So the personality development goes like this: 

Young Kirika (Kirika 3 personality) is given the gun by Altena, with instructions to off Mirielle's family. She's shown the best promise, the best results and is advanced over the other two, so she gets the hot seat first. She does, Odet, her old man, and her son, and returns to the manor, or goes from there to her training cycle for Noir. 

During these intervening years, her training brings out Kirika 2. Kirika 2 is a non-functional (other than for killing) personality,so it doesn't gain dominance, but Kirika 3 may not understand what's going on. Probably Kirika 2 remembers what evil things get done (let's say she's along for the ride when Kirika 3's in control) and that leads to development of Kirika 1 (amnesia) in order to deal with it all. 

Kirika 1 doesn't know what the others have been up to, which perfectly explains the partial memory loss, and the timing for it, without getting into voodoo technology, brainwashing, etc. Kirika 1 has emerged as a response to the emotional trauma caused by the other two. This also explians why she doesn't remember any actual training events, though still has mastery of her training. It also follows in line with the "repressed memory" theories. Kirika 1 gets "born" to repress those memories. 

Kirika 1 has an idea that something's up, but many times multiple personalities don't know of the existance of the others, and won't remember what those others did, so her memory loss is partial. She knows something bad's been going on, maybe even a rough idea of what it's about, but to Kirika 1, she may be a normal kid. She contacts Mirielle because she knows she has something to do wtih it, and off we go into the story. 

As Kirika 1 learns more and more, the other personalities begin to surface. We see her remembering things, like the chant, parts of the book, etc. which may be signs of the other personalities trying to come out. It's three people sharing one mind at this point, so there's alot of noise and confusion in there. 

This explains why she wanted to beleive there was a "normal" Kikira, because there was at one time long ago (young Kirika #), that didn't get the chance to be "normal". She (Kirika 1) knows she's not the "normal" one. 

This explains the various references made in the show about Kirika and her past, and how she could be this or that. How she could be happy in the "family" picture, how she can kill so coldly, how she can switch into a killing machine, how she can feel that there's so much more deep inside her but not access it. 

It explains why she wouldn't mind if Mirielle kills her, without making Kirika out to be a total liar. Mirielle herself in ep 18 confirms solidly that Kirika isn't lying aobut her memory. 

It also explains the three shadows at the fountain in ep 18 (I think). That's the representation of her three different personaltities. 

It further explains why she (Kirika 3) says she's done running away, and why she takes responsibility herself for the sins she's committed. 

The multiple personality disorder explains everything that Kirika goes through in the series. It also fits logically into the timeline of the entire story, past and present. It fits little clues that aren't that easy to explain (like the shadows. You'll notice that when young Kirika shoots Odet, there's only one shadow behind her, basically because at that time there is only Kirika 3). It also fits with the various theories out there on what Kirika knows and dosen't know. With multiple hers, her actual knowledge does vary. In fact, you can fit this into all the major theories that may not totally agree with each other, because it explains the inconsistancies. 

So my pet theory of Kirika is that she has three personalities, and using that, all can be explained. 

Ross 
 
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SwordSkill
Kind Mother


Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 257
Location: Philippines
 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:50 am    Post subject:    

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...hm, very interesting theory, with the Freudian hint. ^^ it certainly does account for most of the symbolism that was present in the series. so if we were to follow this chronologically in kirika's life, kirika3 surfaced first, then 2, then 1, then a conflicting among all three, wouldn't it? 

i mentioned a hint of the Freudian psychoanalysis...sort of just me trying to elaborate your theory to give it more scientific depth, Ross. ^^ er, i'm not sure if everyone knows Freudian psychoanalysis of the levels of the human psyche, so i'll just give a short crash course on it. XD XD 

okay, the three levels of the human psyche according to Freud goes as such: every humans is comprised of the Id, the Ego, and the Superego. the Id is considered the basest of the three....it comprises the most basic instincts of the human...plainly put, it is where your most intense desires, good or bad, are situated, with no holds barring. 

now the Ego is what keeps the Id in control. ok, for example, the Id would be in control if you felt a need to urinate and you just urinated in your pants (sorry, for the vulgarity, but i think it makes a very easy-to-understand example ^^;; ). that's the Id working....your desire is to urinate, so you did just that. what the Ego does is that it is the one which tells you to take off your pants first. so if your Id goes, "I'm going to pee," your Ego will says "Take off your pants first because if you don't, you're going to smell bad, and you'll hate that smell." the Ego takes control of the desire of the Id for the "good" of the individual. 

the Superego, however, is the one that controls BOTH the Id and the Ego for the good of society. the Superego in every person is what makes us follow the norms and conventions of society. so if Id says, "i'm going to pee," Ego says, "Hold it in, take off your pants first," Superego would be saying, "Both of you, before you do anything that would embarrass us, go to the bathroom first!" the Superego is the most conscious of all three in the human mind; it's what takes account of what people would think of you. the Id doesn't care about anything except satisfying itself, the Ego cares only about your own "good" for your own sake , while the Superego cares of what people think of you. humans are supposed to be the most "civilized" if the Superego is in control. that is what all of us "normal" people are supposed to be. ^^;; our Superego's are in control of us. 

what is very important to note is that in the entire course of our lives, these three are fighting for supremacy. always. the Id, Ego, and the Superego are always trying to dominate one another to take control of the person. it just so happens that the Superego is usually the one that wins...that is, in "normal" people anyway. 

but Kirika is certainly not "normal." 

now why am i bringing this up with Kirika's split personalities? because i think i've heard somewhere that having split personalities is actually the result of two or even the three levels of the human psyche having equal strength against each other that there is no one dominate level in control. sometimes the Id is strong enough to overcome the two, sometimes the Ego is, and sometimes the Superego is. no one is winning constantly. in other words, the person is not stable because the dominant position keeps changing. 

so, to tie that up with what you said, Ross, about Kirika's three personalities fighting to take control of her, [e.g. "Probably Kirika 2 remembers what evil things get done (let's say she's along for the ride when Kirika 3's in control) and that leads to development of Kirika 1 (amnesia) in order to deal with it all."], i think another way of looking at it with a Freudian outlook is that the three personalities you mentioned are actually the manifestations of Kirika's Id, Ego, and the Superego, all with equal strength. 

so in a sense, when Kirika is in Kirika2 mode, it is the Id that is in control. she doesn't care what she thinks of herself or what people think of her. she just does her thing. however, when Kirika is in Kirika3 mode (all regretful and everything), it's her Ego that's in control, telling her that this is not good for you because it's human tendency to feel guilt and you'll just torture yourself if you keep killing people. likewise, when Kirika is in Kirika1 mode (amnesiac), it's her Superego taking control and saying, "You know what, this isn't doing anyone any good. I'll just force her to forget everything so the Id won't kill anyone and the Ego won't give her an ulcer over this. I'll repress the Id and the Ego; that way, everyone's happy, because it's as if nothing ever happened. She'll look 'normal' to society, for the most part, because she's not murdering people nor is she carrying a big, angsty burden of sadness because of what she did in the past." 

so in actuality, Kirika1, 2, and 3, had been inside Kirika all her life; they just came out at different times and certainly traumatized the poor girl because she can't just stick to one of them. it's just a matter of which level is currently being the dominant one. 

anyway, that's just my $0.20. ^^;; i hope i made sense. (although i can't believe i just made a psychoanalytic reading of Noir!  )
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:17 pm    Post subject:    

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Nice convincing exposition Ross. 

Personally I'm a bit indifferent to the multiple personality theories in general because while it can indeed be used to justify almost any apparent inconsistency, it only explains the how but tells very little about why events occured as they did and not otherwise. However your 3 personalities together with SwordsKill's Freudian interpretation sound promising. 

You have additionally raised an interesting point about the 3 shadows representing the 3 personalities. Others have connected them to the 3 Trees based on their colors, blue for Kirika, yellow for Mireille and purple for Chloe. This need not be contradictory; Kirika says "Chloe is another me" and in the special there is some comment somewhere about Mireille and Kirika being the same person where Mireille is the surface and Kirika the deep. 

So which personality do we fit to which tree? Obviously, Kirika herself stands for Kirika 3. Now I'm sure everyone will disagree but I like to explore the non-obvious so I will pick Mireille for Kirika 2. 

Kirika 2 is the tough surface the real Kirika hides behind, just like in the external world Mireille acts as the buffer through which Kirika interacts with the world. Just like Kirika 2, Mireille is initially a cold and uncaring killer. And when an evil eyed little Kirika guns down the family, the scene is significantly bathed in yellow, Mireille's color. To tie this to SwordsKill's nice theory, Mireille's apparent egoism and self-centeredness point to the Id. Even her appearance could be seen to point to base instincts and desires (and there you thought she was just fanservice without realizing the deep plot relevance of the Freudian implications - shame on you, you hentai  ) 

Somewhat surprisingly then, Kirika 1 is Chloe. It fits remarkably, as just as the amnesiac Kirika, Chloe is childlike an "innocent" in a sense, and kills without regret. And just like Chloe, Kirika 1 is protective and also craves affection. As representative of Soldats, the 'society' imposing its demands, Chloe can be the SuperEgo in the Freudian interpretation. 

The final fight is then symbolic of the different personalities struggling for control. 

By accepting her past sins (choosing Mireille), Kirika rejects her amnesiac personality that runs away from reality (hence Chloe had to die  ) 

Now that I have everyone mad at me anyway, I'll heap it on a bit more; 
"Love can kill, hate can save." quoth Altena. 

I think Chloe represents "love can kill" as she kills for love of Altena, love of Kirika, and you could say she killed Jeruna because she liked Raimund, and so on. So Chloe loves. And can she kill! It could also be argued that she is eventually killed by love, whether you think she was mad with jealousy or that she chose to die at Kirika's hand. 

So who represents "hate can save"? Mireille hates whoever is responsible for the death of her family, and says so repeatedly. Much anger in her we sense, as Yoda would say. Yet it is she who saves the one person she has hated the most during her entire life, the killer of her family. 

Guess what? Altena was right, Odette just didn't understand!  
If this sounds too farfetched, I would like to point out that it is only Mireille's hatred and thirst for revenge that stops her from killing Kirika in the first episode. 

What do you think? 
 
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Ross
Forum Minion


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Virginia Beach, VA USA
 Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:36 pm    Post subject:    

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I think the colors represent the type of personality and not the personality itself. By that I mean that one color doesn't repersent a specific character, like Chloe, Mirielle, Kirika, but that they represent stages or versions of anyone. Sort of in line with the Id, Ego, super Ego theory. 

The only reason I have for beleiving that the colors don't directly represent a character is that young Kirika and young Mirielle have the same color in "killing room" during the flashbacks. This ties into my theory that Kirika's personality at the time was "normal" Kirika (what I've called Kirika 3). Kirika shoots Odet, but cries BEFORE she does it (we see that in the ep 26 flashback). When Mirielle enters the room after the hit, her shadow is the same color as well. I assume that color to represent innocence, or innocence passing. 

By this theory, Chloe could be yellow (or whatever color), but so could one of Kirika's personalities. Fitting the "reflection of myself" comment. So I don't think the shadows are the characters exactly, simply because all three characters actually overlap quite a bit and all three can be reflections. 

Ross 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:00 am    Post subject:    

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Well I'm not sure the shadow color symbolism was used there as well as in episode 19. Since they colored everything lighted yellow, they could hardly make the shadows yellow also or we wouldn't see anything  
 
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Ross
Forum Minion


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Virginia Beach, VA USA
 Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:21 am    Post subject:    

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"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"- S. Freud 

They may just be shadows after all. Because they are only used once or twice (depending), there may not have been a great in-depth development of them. The shadows may have a very simple meaing (not the least of which is there are three lights at the fountain and only one at Mirielle's). 

I'd still go with them being symbolic, but they may have not developed the idea as deeply as we have. 

Ross 
 
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Ross
Forum Minion


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Virginia Beach, VA USA
 Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:37 am    Post subject:    

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As for "hate can save" I'd go with Mirielle as well, but not the same way as Faceless Minion. I'd agree with the revenge motive at first, but in the end Mirielle is "saved" by love, not hate. Kirika saves her (which seems to be a good reason to have her around as Kirika saves Mirielle's bacon so many times) because of love. 

Mirielle is indeed the representation of "hate can save"...being wrong.  

Ross 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:24 am    Post subject:    

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It would be a bit of a coincidence that we see 3 shadows that just happen to be in the hair colors of the three main characters... But we didn't actually rely on this shadowplay for concluding that there are 3 separate personalities/levels to Kirika, nor for theorizing that the three trees symbolically represented these separate personalities. It's just "supporting evidence". 

As for Kirika saving Mireille out of love, I was actually not thinking about that, but about how Mireille saves Kirika, literally from the pit of lava, but also "redeems" her by forgiving her. Depending on how we interpret the ending, it could be argued that Mireille is equally "saved" from the darkness that was her life. You could say that they saved each other, but I think the focus of the story is primarily the redemption of Kirika. 

I agree that in the end both were saved by rejecting hate. I don't believe "hate can save" could work as a general principle in reality. But within the scope of Noir, I find it interesting that the most angry, revenge-driven character is eventually the one symbolically pulling Kirika out of the depths of hellfire (probably some Buddhist symbology in this) and that it was her original hatred over the murder of her family that started her on her pilgrimage. Mireille I think evolves from "hating" wrongs done to her, to hating evil done to others as well, to eventually rejecting all evil, including her own hatred. It's a bit more complex than just being in love with Kirika, "love conquers all" melodrama BS. I think it's not love for Kirika that stops her from killing Altena, but rather that Mireille has evolved to a different level of morality. 

It's easy to dismiss Altena's "hate can save" with a few ML King quotes, but Altena didn't strike me as stupid, so I like to think there was some non-obvious meaning to her words that makes sense. Both "hate" and "save" are sufficiently vague so it's not self-evident what she meant... 

I firmly believe the poor Soldat guy in episode 11: "in this world there are neither allies nor enemies". Just labeling Altena as the "bad gal" is too boring... 
 
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 219
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:47 pm    Post subject:    

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Good point.  
what altena said about Kirika, how she would be a sinner eternally, made me realize that noir is really Kirika's story. I think that Kirika probably tried to contact other people but failed, and mirielle was probably one of many contacts that had either not known anything or turned on her.
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"Watashi wa rurouni, gozaru yo." 
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member_01
n00b


Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 14
Location: Philippines
 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:20 am    Post subject:    

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what? I don't get it... 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:18 pm    Post subject:    

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member_01 wrote: 
what? I don't get it... 


It might help if you were a little more specific... 

To continue a bit more on this topic, I've rewatched episode 1 recently, and 2 things stood out that I didn't pay so much attention to before, but that could be important in the light of this topic. 

While Kirika re-assembles her stripped weapon, she says: 

Kirika: And.. I found this. That's not all.. 
Kirika: I did something horrible.. 

She then chambers a round, and hands the pistol to Mireille!! 

1) What horrible thing did Kirika do? How does she know, if she can't remember anything? 

2) What possessed her to hand a live weapon to a dangerous assassin like this? I thought the knife in episode 2 was bad but this is far worse - is there any excuse for handing anyone a firearm, chambered, cocked, and safety off? And why do it in the context of the previous statement? 

Kirika is so weird... Whenever I start believing her amnesia story she pulls stuff like that  
 
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the last metalslugger
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 79

 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:25 pm    Post subject: re.   

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well at that point in the episode she's trying to get M to take her in. By handing M the gun Kirika is saying that her life is in M's hands. 

As for the horrible thing, I assumed she was talking about killing those 3 guys that chased her. If she had amnesia she wouldn't have recalled killing anyone else. And killing 3 people is a pretty horrible thing to do if you can't remember doing anything worse.
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Ross
Forum Minion


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Virginia Beach, VA USA
 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:03 pm    Post subject:    

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I too thought she was refering to the three guys that she killed in the bamboo forest, when she was talking about "the horrible thing". Being able to kill all three and not feel bad about it may have effected her as well. The episode states that she contacted Mirielle after that, so it fits pretty well. 

As for handing her the gun, I've never quite figured that one out. It's a basic safety rule NOT to hand someone a loaded gun. The only time I would do it is if I was in the middle of a fight and was expecting them to use it. I've thought of the same thing you're thinking, that Kirika may have wanted to die right there, but after rewatching it I'm not as sure. 

What floated into my head that changed that was the succeding scene with the watch. I've come to the think that Kirika hands Mirielle the Beretta to see if Mirielle knows anything about where it came from. I figure the fact of it being loaded was a combination of the writer wanting suspense and not being familiar with firearms being Japanese. There are a couple other technical mistakes made dealing with the firearms themselves, and their usage to a lesser degree, that show they had good references to make the drawings/movements, but no actual experience with the weapon. Mistakes that weren't made for artistic license, but out of ignorance. Japan isn't exactly known for widespread firearms experience of the common citizen. Very few people even ever serve in their SDF because it's so small. 

It's sort of like Kirika is handing Mirielle stuff to see if she recognizes, or knows anything about them. She hands Mirielle the ID card, the gun, then Mirielle asks to see the pocket watch. It's a "Can you make anything out of this stuff?" sorta move. I agree that it being loaded was dumb, but I think it was done out of ignorance by the writer. 

Ross 
 
the last metalslugger
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 79

 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:43 pm    Post subject: re:   

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not to mention giving M somthing to cover her mouth with, thus eliminating the need to animate it
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Ryuusoul
Forum Minion


Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 95
Location: Colorado, USA
 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:11 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 


While Kirika re-assembles her stripped weapon, she says: 

Kirika: And.. I found this. That's not all.. 
Kirika: I did something horrible.. 

 


I've listened to it a couple of times and she says "Motto osoroshii koto mo shitteiru, watashi ga, doushite?" 
This actually means "I also know more horrible (or terrible) things. Why?" 

I think this is actually just her referring to how she knows to kill people in a thousand different ways (if not more). 

Her field stripping the gun and loading it simply implies the knowledge that she has. As for handing it to Mireille, she has placed her life in the hands of Mireille you countlessly throughout the series anyway. Maybe its just her subconscious way of showing her forgotten connection to Mireille? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:45 am    Post subject:    

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If she was referring to knowledge of how to do horrible things, it makes more sense. I thought about the 3 gunmen also, but surviving a 3 on 1 firefight is not really doing something horrible in my opinion. 

Handing the unsafe weapon to Mireille might have been ignorance, or it may be one of the many ways of showing Kirika's suicidal tendencies. Now I'm wondering if they made Kirika suicidal for plot reasons, or if it was just their way of convincing us that Kirika was not a threat to Mireille... 
 
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Ross
Forum Minion


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Virginia Beach, VA USA
 Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:16 am    Post subject:    

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I think they made her "subconsciously suicidal". I don't think they wanted her to be completely docile, or not dangerous to Mirelle in the first part of the series. Even in the scene at Kirika's home, when Kirika reloads the Beretta, there is a slight pause of "What will she do now? Is she going to shoot Mirielle?" before she hands the pistol over to Mirielle. In a later ep, when they are both sitting on the bed, they both point their guns at each other (Kirika aiming first). It seemed like there was just a hint that later on they may pose a threat to each other. While Kirika does save Mirielle countless times, they do indeed eventually fight each other. So I don't buy the idea that it was to show Kirika was no threat to Mirielle. 

Kirika fully accepts the promise of death in exchange for the truth. I think the situation with the loaded weapon was done on purpose as a vehicle to provide some suspense, as a tool to show that Mirielle wasn't going to kill Kirika right then by Mirielle's laying it down, and as a way to show that Kirika is putting her life (or the answers to her quest) in her hands. 

While doing so is boneheaded in a practical point of view, the impact wouldn't have been the same with an empty gun. I mean it certainly would have made more sense to hand Mirielle an empty gun if your purpose was for her to identify something about it. 

It may have been a test of Mirielle to see what she would do. Afterall, Kirika was still armed with her ID card  

Ross 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:47 am    Post subject:    

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Ross wrote: 
In a later ep, when they are both sitting on the bed, they both point their guns at each other (Kirika aiming first). It seemed like there was just a hint that later on they may pose a threat to each other. While Kirika does save Mirielle countless times, they do indeed eventually fight each other. So I don't buy the idea that it was to show Kirika was no threat to Mirielle. 


I should have been more clear, I didn't mean exactly that they wanted to show Kirika was no potential threat, but rather that they may have felt the need to somehow offset the difference in skill level by imposing the psychological handicap on Kirika. I think Kirika's angst level at the start is a little higher than reasonable, making her dependent on Mireille for more than just finding the answers she seeks. At no point until after episode 22 did I get the feeling Kirika would eliminate Mireille when she found her answers. If it were otherwise, Mireille's threat would have lacked credibility. Imagine Kirika had Chloe's self-confidence at the start, it just wouldn't have worked. Mireille would have run away after a few minutes of being ominously stared at. 

When Kirika aims at Mireille in episode 3, her finger is on the trigger but the hammer is decocked, and there is probably nothing in the chamber, even so she seemed to be aiming in front of Mireille's face, not actually to her head... 
 
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 219
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:21 pm    Post subject:    

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Horrible thought: 

Did she kill the two people who were taking care of her?!  Their house was very neat and calm, almost suspiciously so. *loud gulp* I don't want to think she did that.
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:38 pm    Post subject:    

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AthenAltena wrote: 
Did she kill the two people who were taking care of her?!  Their house was very neat and calm, almost suspiciously so. *loud gulp* I don't want to think she did that. 


Imagine that. Scene at Kirika's: 

Mireille: Hey, you got some ice in here? 
Kirika: DON'T touch that freezer! 

 
 
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the last metalslugger
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 79

 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:52 pm    Post subject:    

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she was living by herself since her fake parents had gone off to another job..or at least that was the cover.
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 219
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:21 pm    Post subject:    

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Btw Faceless, very funny, but very disturbing.  

I think there's almost no doubt that they weren't really her parents, and "new jobs" is a pretty common excuse criminals use when asked why they moved suddenly. 

It could be that they were two soldats who were charged to set K up in that situation, maybe under instruction from Altena. Maybe the three gunmen who were quickly killed off by Kirika were sent there to kill one of the saplings to throw Altena off. Just an idea. gotta go. 


[/quote]
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:16 am    Post subject:    

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AthenAltena wrote: 
I think there's almost no doubt that they weren't really her parents, and "new jobs" is a pretty common excuse criminals use when asked why they moved suddenly.  


It's one of the things we don't know, there is not enough information given in the series. Kirika must have had parents somewhere, and if Mireille is any indication, they were probably Soldats as well (Soldats is so big, they wouldn't need to look outside of the organisation for Noir candidates). If Mireille's parents had welcomed her selection for Noir, what would have happened? Maybe she might even have continued living with them for the most part... She did apparently stay with her uncle instead, so it's not as if Soldats really wanted to erase her family ties completely. As an aside, if Claude helped Mireille set up her shop in Paris, isn't it likely that most of her contacts there (like the hairdresser etc) are also Soldats operatives? It was not really explored in the series, but it seems like an inevitable conclusion that Mireille's 'freedom' in comparison to the other trees was just an illusion. 

The two people in the picture with Kirika were almost certainly Soldats. However they might have been her real parents. It's not because they used a fake name and had falsified records that they couldn't be related... 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:42 am    Post subject:    

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Regarding the original topic, and how Chloe seemed to imply multiple missions, it occured to me that the "tasks" may have referred to the several members of the Bouquet family. So even though she had multiple targets to eliminate, she still may have done only the Corsica mission. 

Another possible explanation for why the Corsica job is so important to Kirika could be that any other missions she did simply posed less moral problems to her (eliminating obviously evil criminals, selfdefence or whatever). Or perhaps we are supposed to wonder how what Kirika did to Mireille was any worse than what she did to Rosaly Hammond or any other affected bystanders? 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:00 am    Post subject:    

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IMHO.... 

Kirika would not, no no no NO way, have killed her caretakers. The whole essence of Kirika's psychological turmoil is that she can't be normal, and she longs to be so, e.g. the scene in ep. 19 with her remembering school. She was stripped of her name at the Manor, only being referred to as "that child", and while we see Chloe having tea and being chummy with Altena I doubt Kirika ever had that relationship with her. She was likely devoid of all affection as a child, and clings onto the slightest thing throughout the series that shows her compassion; Prince Myshkin, Milosh, eventually Mireille herself. If two people were taking care of her and showing her genuine affection as was seen in that photograph, she wouldn't have killed them, she'd have loved the fact that finally she had a semblance of a normal life. Kirika's been trained, programmed and brutalised into killing but she still isn't a psychopath, and that would have been a psychopathic crime. There's no reason to kill them. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:15 pm    Post subject:    

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I theorized elsewhere that it might have been the loss of her (surrogate or not) "family" in Japan that caused her amnesia/guilt trip/something. Perhaps she realised for the first time what she took from Mireille when they moved away/were killed/whatever and left her alone. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:23 am    Post subject:    

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Plausible. Doesn't *necessarily* mean she killed them though.... maybe she got very attached to them (understandable, for the reasons mentioned above) and Soldats killed them..... 

Suffice to say I don't think she's hiding the bodies in the freezer. ^^;; Kirika doesn't kill people for absolutely no reason - she kills to protect herself, because it's her job while working with Mireille, or because she's told to. 
 
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Ross
Forum Minion


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Virginia Beach, VA USA
 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:45 am    Post subject:    

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Maybe Kirika HAD to kill them as per instructions (...many other tasks...) and that's what sent her over the edge in the manner that Facelessminion suggests. 

Not only from knowing what she had stolen from Mirielle, but what she had stolen from herself in her obedience to the Soldats. 

Her fake parents are probably fertilizer in the Bamboo forrest downhill from her house (easier to roll bodies downhill). 
 

Ross 
 
Deathbringer
Soldat


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 56
Location: 667 - neighbor of the beast
 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: ::::::Spoilers:::::   

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Wasn`t Kirika attaked by the Soldats to test her of her opinions ? 
I think one of the Soldats had sayed this to Mireille and Mireille had answered , that someone had taken sand into Kirikas eyes , so she can`t see the true .... or not  
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"Love certainly can kill people, however, don't forget, hatred can never save people, NEVER!!" 

-- Odette Bouquet 
 
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Deathbringer
Soldat


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 56
Location: 667 - neighbor of the beast
 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: ::::::Spoilers:::::   

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Wasn`t Kirika attaked by the Soldats to test her of her opinions ? 
I think one of the Soldats had sayed this to Mireille and Mireille had answered , that someone had taken sand into Kirikas eyes , so she can`t see the true .... or not   



Deathbringer
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"Love certainly can kill people, however, don't forget, hatred can never save people, NEVER!!" 

-- Odette Bouquet 
 
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 219
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:22 pm    Post subject:    

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I wrote a fanfic where Kirika and Chloe had been at the Manor "Only a short time together" quoting Chloe, and during that time was when they killed the Bouquets. I made up that Chloe had been brought along to seen what it was like, and granted this is just me theorizing, but I said that Kirika had been brainwashed during the killing and then gone back to 
"normal". 

I just came up with these based on the little evidence in the series, so feel free to contradict me. ^ ^
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:00 am    Post subject:    

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If you subscribe to the suppressed-trauma thesis, the Bouquet thing was probably pretty early on, and the root of Kirika's convenient memory-loss. Over the years, Kirika probably threw a whole lot more similar incidents down the memory hole, and may or may not have whined to someone about "living a normal life." When Altena felt like getting the ball rolling, she let Kirika "escape," get pursued, shot at, and find a certain Corsican. 

Exactly why her amnesia would kick in precisely after she wakes up, I've no idea. I suppose she could have been in that mental fugue of hers for six or so years, but that would leave her with the personality of an eight-or-so year old when she comes to. Which, come to think of it, is probably about right. 

The fugue presumably lifted when it did because when she woke up for the very first time in her life she was not waking up to a cold stone ceiling and the smell of stale blood (and wine). Alternatively, Altena could have been spiking her food with something all these years; a common tactic in the training of child soldiers. Alternatively alternatively, she could, for the first time in recent memory, actually be sober, having been doped up on cheap wine all these years. OR, she woke up, and Altena clobbered her with a stick until she got it right. 

Altena: "What is your name?" 

Kirika: "My name? Why, I'm Inundo Montoya." 

*WHACK!* 

*thud!* 

*several minutes pass* 

Kirika: "Uuugh..." 

Altena: "What is your name?" 

Kirika: "It's...it's Inu--" 

*WHACK!* 

*interval* 

Kirika: "Hrgbubleblll...." 

Altena: "What...is...your...NAME?!" 

Kirika: "Stop...stop hitting me...please..." 

Altena: "Oh, just give her the hypno-juice already." 

Chloe: "You mean the Grand Retour 1648?" 

Altena: "Yeah." 

Chloe: "We're out." 

Altena: "What?! We had seven bottles, what happened?" 

Chloe: "I have no *hic* idea." 

Altena: "Wino." 

Chloe: "*censored*." 

[Editor's note: Cool! One of those censorship thingies!] 

Kirika: "My name is Inundo Montoya. You killed my father. Roll for initiative." 

*WHACK WHACK WHACK!* 

Altena: *breathing hard* 

Chloe: "Oh, ick, like, blood...*faints*" 

See what happens when I start theorizing? A skit! Every time!
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:04 pm    Post subject:    

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I'm little bit familiar with the 3 Persons theory, but in a different way. I assume Kirika as two persons, that are one. 

As Chilld Kirika was normal, with all the feelings children have. The dark side (I call it further Kirika-Noir) was part of her, but always controlled by her beautiful light side (Kirika-Blanc). By getting the assasin training, the Kirika-Noir got stronger. To protect Kirika-Blanc, Kirika part in this two personalities. Both are present at the same time, with different leves of control. In combat and assassination situations Kirika-Noir takes most (not all) control, in normal Life Kirika-Blanc. 

At the rooftop fighting it gets worse for Kirika-Blanc. She disappears and Kirika-Noir gains full control. The same happens at the way to tha manor, after a complete village and an old woman had sacrificed their lifes for her. In the fight with Mireille Kirika-Blanc returns. 

In the final scene Kirika-Blanc faces Kirika-Noir. With the words "I am Noir. I am Noir!" she realizes that no one else than she did all these bad things. Her two personalities reunite. 

Her memory loss has nothing to do with this split personality. It's a result of brainwashing. The information about Mireille was implanted, and all personal memories deleted. Except two: the memory of the kill of the Bouqets and the memory who had given the order. Both memories got a trigger, to recall it if necessary. The memory of the kill is triggered by the final guidance. The other is triggered by receiving the Beretta vom Altenas hands. I assume it was origanally planned by Altena for the ceremony at the lava dome. The appearence of Kirika-Noir at the manor wan't planned by Althena. Her trials to bring back Kirika-Noir with her and Chloes love failed. So she tried with hatred. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:29 pm    Post subject:    

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Interesting. In your theory, who brainwashed Kirika, and why? Why would they leave some memories and not others? What was the plan? If it was to make her miserable, could they not more simply just brainwash her to be miserable? 

Was Mireille also brainwashed? How and why did Kirika get the pocketwatch? 

My current opinion is that the memory loss was, just like Dark Kirika who suppresses her feelings, an escape mechanism to shield herself from what she did. I agree with you that at the end they become merged.
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 219
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:50 pm    Post subject:    

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I always assumed Kirika just took the pocketwatch from the crimescene later, or maybe it was planted to guide her to Mirielle. 

I agree that her two personalities merged, since she is a very different person at the end of the final episode imo than at the beggining. 

I think that whoever brainwashed her was actually Altena, I made up in my fic that she used hypnosis. I think some were left out because only the ones she found were necessary. It might have to do with something that sometimes happens to patients in past life recall, where only the memories that are relevant come out at one particular time. So maybe later in her life she would remember other things, such as the "Blank Years" of Noir training.
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:31 pm    Post subject:    

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Ah, the good old "What is the nature of a [wo]man" debate. Was Kirika originally nice then corrupted by her training, or was Miss Eeeee-Scary-Scary-Eyes always there, waiting for the right moment to strike? 

I personally favour the split personality theory. It makes sense that a person in her position would try to "other" all the horrible things she did every time she did them. "I'm not a remorseless killing machine, I'm a nice person" and all that. Most lies, repeated often enough and with enough conviction, become true. Altena, with her crack team of nun-psychologists, could probably monitor the strength of this personality split, and release Kirika at the appropriate moment. 

I also favor the idea that the whole Noir project was actually like that "Child Called X" thing back in the 60s: a social-engineering experiment initiated for pure scientific curiosity without thought of the consequences. I'd run with this idea if it were anyone but Altena running the show. If one of those generic Illuminati persons was in charge, I imagine he'd see the Noir project as a scheme to make the perfect soldier, with the religious stuff thrown in purely for the purpose of indoctrination. 

Wait. That's "Metal Gear: Solid." Sorry. Tired. Brain. Frying. 

As to how and why she got the watch, I don't think that's a huge mystery. Every Soldat worth his/her salt has one of those snazzy time-pieces; all Altena would have to do is mug somebody. It doesn't necessarily have to be the actual watch she saw all those years ago; Mireille thought it was unique, after all. Unless it's, like, got, "Propertae of Don Bouquet, and Don't You Fuggetaboutit!" on the back. That'd be just weird. [Is sleep deprivation healthy? I'm just asking...] 

Why give her the watch? That's her ticket to snag Mireille. Remember, she was all set to hit "Trash" until that little .mp3 file played. Altena needs her in the picture for her little social-engineering/pseudo-religious/world-redeeming project to get off the ground. Being a big fan of symbolism, she'd also want to chain Kirika to some physical representation of her destiny. "See this watch? The symbol? This is you. You _will_ become Noir; it is only a matter of time." [Genius! I should sleep less than 2 hours all the time!] 

If Altena had some astonishingly skilled psycholgists (or could read minds), she might know exactly what physical sensations would trigger which of Kirika's repressed memories. (Or she hard-coded them in with hypnosis, whichever you prefer.) Hence, if you want to make absolutely certain that the first thing she even vaguely recalls is a highly traumatic death, then you give her an object associated with it. 

Alternatively, Kirika might just need a watch. Things are pretty backwards at the Manor; maybe they don't have wrist-watches? Only these painfully expensive Swiss masterworks? 

If Altena was sneaky and web-savvy, she could use the watch as a tracking device. Slap a GPS transponder in it and never lose your favorite waif-like Nihonjin again. 

It suddenly occurs to me that the entire Noir tragedy could have been averted if only the watch were not present. For example, what if, upon opening that drawer of destiny, Kirika had found a cute fluffy bunny rabbit? [Stops to laugh maniacally as he reinvisions the death of the Bouquets with a musical rabbit in place of the watch.]. "You are Noir. Cold. Precise. Merciless. Fearless. Just like this...fluffy...bunny...rabbit...all right, who's the wise nun? C'mon, fess up. Don't make me break out the Stick of Justice +3." 

Kirika will probably live with these flashbacks the rest of her life. Like, she'll be walking down the street, and someone will say, "Fresh CHEESE here!" and she'll be all, "For Gondor!" and recall her secret past as a LotR cosplayer. 

.... 

'Kay, that one even weirded ME out, and I typed it.
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:05 am    Post subject:    

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The reason I ask about the watch is that, if she picked up the watch after the killings, Mireille should have seen her, because Mireille was there while the watch was still on the floor. So someone should have brainwashed Mireille. Or Kirika hid when Mireille came in and came back later for the watch. But why would Kirika take the watch and keep it her whole life? Did she bite off Odette's fingers to take her rings too?  And if Kirika had the watch her entire life, and the watch was some sort of hypnotic trigger, why did she wait until then to contact Mireille? 

If Kirika didn't pick up the watch at the time, someone must have given it to her later or put it in her drawer while she was asleep. But then the question becomes; who and why? Did someone WANT Kirika to find Mireille? 

Was everything that happened part of a careful plan? If so, who controlled the plan and how? Did the plan succeed or not? If not, what was supposed to happen instead? 

And if Soldats has such magic brainwashing powers, how do we know that any event in the series really happened rather than being a fabricated memory of a brain suspended in a fishtank? 

My own interpretation is that there was no careful plan and Kirika lost her memories all by herself. It's a matter of plausibility. Kirika has both the means and the motivation to suppress her own memories, and her doing so could be easily explained with normal psychology. For someone else to "brainwash" her to the extent that would be necessary would probably require some fairly advanced voodoo magic, and their possible reasons for doing so are far from evident. Yes I'm lazy... 

Of course part of the problem is that nobody ever pulls out a whiteboard to explain what they think they are doing and why (and if they did we might not believe they are telling the truth). What WAS the final guidance? For all we know the purpose could be to only remind Kirika of the way to the Manor, and everything else was accidental side-effects... 

But disregarding for a moment the question of whether Kirika's amnesia was self-induced, FallenAngel's theory has one other important aspect, namely to reduce the number of Kirika's personalities from the previously postulated 3 (normal, amnesiac, dark) to 2 (blanche, noire) and separate them from the memory issue. But I wonder, if the separate personalities are not needed to explain the amnesia, can we not do without altogether? 

In my opinion; 
amnesiac Kirika = normal Kirika - memories 
dark Kirika = normal Kirika - emotions 
slight overlap as she doesn't recover her memories instantly, but all are imho still the same person. 

In this scenario, the story is more or less as follows: Kirika, at some point is so overcome by guilt for killing Mireille's parents that she suppresses her incriminating memories. When events cause some of her memories to resurface, she breaks down and wants to die, or more specifically she wants Mireille to kill her. A little later she finds herself in the situation where she must kill again or she will die. Given her state of mind she would probably not have minded dying, but the fact that an entire village (including a chibi-Mireille-lookalike) just sacrificed themselves to protect her makes that option less attractive. So she copes by suppressing all her feelings and killing some more. Later on when she realizes Mireille doesn't hate her after all, she starts to return to normal, except that by now she has learned that running away, by suppressing either her memories or her feelings, doesn't really work and only causes more trouble in the end. She still wants to end her suffering, until Mireille strongly insist that she goes on living for a bit.
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:31 pm    Post subject:    

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Sorry, today wrote a reply which explained my opinion. But after hours of work, as I pressed reply, the login came and all was lost. Try tommorow again 
 
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:20 am    Post subject:    

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I dunno if the watch thing is really that big of a mystery, but here goes. 

My guess? Kirika did not pick up the watch. Neither did Chloe. Or the killer teddy bear. None of these persons had any reason for doing so. 

Mireille did not. I think she'd make an annual pilgrimage to it if she knew where it was. Y'know, like Batman and Crime Alley. Or, like, she'd hang it above her bed, so when she woke up and went all, "And what are we going to do today? Macrame? Work in the soup kitchen?" she'd see it and go, "Oh yeah, the revenge thing. Right." 

Probably about three seconds after the assassination bit, and after Kirika was safely stowed away in a taxi, Uncle Claude (unless he was stupid) probably snatched Mireille and jumped on that boat to France before the Salvatores, the Mordinos, the Wrights, and the McSweeneys ("very old, established family") came in to lay siege to Corsica. 

At this point, Generic Soldat Cleaner #227 (or Altena) could, at his/her option, sweep in to retrieve the watch. It could then be placed in Warehouse 23 (next to the Arc of the Covenant) until Altena retrieved it to give to Kirika so Mireille would recognize it blah blah blah. 

As for why Kirika waited to contact Mireille...do you really think they've got ADSL at the Manor? They'd be lucky to have semaphore, for grape's sake. 

[Side note: the entire Noir project is obviously a bowlderdized reenactment of Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath, wherein Altena originally intended to repopularize the work. Unfortunately, her first student, Chloe, saw "Grapes" and "Wrath," and soon started stabbing the little purple balls of alcoholic goodness. Seeking to discourage her from trashing the vineyard, she channelled the child's puissant skill in stabbery into a B.A. in Stabbination. 

Uh, yeah, that one weirded me out. Anyone out there know how long it takes one to recover from sleep deprivation?] 

And again, it doesn't have to be the same freakin' watch, since every Soldat and her brother/sister/cat has one of the blasted things. Notice how they were littered everywhere at the Manor? Probably have a factory of eight-year olds in Taiwan churning out the things. 

[Note to self: investigate Kirika's possible origins as escaped child labourer, and series as whole as dramatization of Naomi Klein's "No Logo." And get some sleep already.] 

[Note to self: read entire post before responding so you realize it's a joke, stupid.] 

[Note to self: we knew it was a joke; hence the serious reply. Dork.] 

"...untl Mireille strongly insists that she goes on living for a bit" (emphasis added) ?!?! 

Is my sarcasm rubbing off onto others or something? Or have I found a kindred spirit with which to rule the world? 

And yes, the "Blanc-Noir" naming scheme works very nicely, especially since that makes "normal" Kirika "gray," which fits in with the entire serie's conception of morality. 

Now, onto more important matters. 

Who made that watch, NASA? It survives a plunge from 10 meters onto solid stone strong enough to shatter glass, yet still plays perfectly fine. I realize that "Doo da dee doo da dee dee doo *sproing!*" wouldn't have the same dramatic effect, but really now! 

And would things have turned out differently if it played a different tune? "Jingle Bells," perhaps? Maybe "The Entertainer"? 

Argh! Another one of those ideas again! The watch is in fact a cleverely disguised cellular phone! Y'know, one of those ones with the custom rings! In 2009, the Soldats have realized that those custom ringtones are irritating enough to destroy anyone's faith in humanity, and have issued them to all field agents. Damn you, inspiration! Back! Back I say! Let me sleep in peace! *sobs* 

On a more serious note, is the watch still running in that closing shot? 'Cause that'd just throw a whole new angle on the ending.
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:33 am    Post subject:    

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Man, you really do post at the most ungodly hours! I shudder to think what your typical day must be like. And you said you never drink coffee? Put your bed away from your computer or something. Don't do this to yourself...  

Anyway, someone planting the watch is perhaps a little more plausible than Kirika keeping trophies for every kill. But then the person who planted the watch would probably have done it because they wanted Kirika and Mireille to get together. Would that be Altena or her opponents within Soldats? I had the impression that Mireille wasn't really Altena's candidate. I think Soldats didn't want Altena to control all candidates so supposedly someone else was responsible for Mireille (and slacked off because didn't really care for a Noir). So if Mireille meeting Kirika was planned, was the purpose to get Kirika away from Altena and sabotage a Kirika-Chloe pairing, either by having her bond with the non-Altena candidate or by Mireille killing her; or was it Altena's attempt to salvage Mireille? And why would Altena feel a need to bring Mireille up to speed when she already has a near perfect pair? 

As an aside, we know Altena gave Kirika her Beretta, but that doesn't have to mean that it was Altena who ordered the Bouquet killings? Poor Altena is always being framed for everything that happens, she really is the black sheep of Soldats. 

At the end, the watch is missing its seconds hand so we can't know if it is still running, but I think it's supposed to be broken. It's an interesting question though, would Kirika have shot Mireille, had the watch shattered to bits?
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:49 am    Post subject:    

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So, second trial to explain my opinion. This time I wrote it before and simply copied it. One thing at the beginning. I've seen the german dub of Noir. The quotations I do are retranslations and may differ from english version. But I hope the sense is the same because I know some wrong translations in german version. 

Kirika has dual personality. It's because the Noir thing. Noir are two maiden, which act as an unit. Kirika refers to herself as Noir at least 3 times: Twice in episode 1, first at construction site, as Mireille asks her Who are you she answers Noir, an then, later in her house, as she tells Mireille that she woke up one morning and the only thing she could remember was that she is Noir. In episode 26 in front of Altena she says I'm Noir. I am Noir!. In same scene Altena calls her Noir. And even dying Chloe calls her Noir. More evidence for dual personality will follow. 

If you assume brainwash as reason for the memory loss of Kirika, many things are easier to explain. The mastermind behind the plan is Altena, and if she hadn't done the Brainwash herself, it was an expert in her order. 

Now I try to explain Altenas plan. It's not easy, and it will take a while. I have to jump through the episodes from the end to the beginning and back. 

After last episode I was without any clue. I didn't understand Altenas motivation. If she really wanted absolute power, why she tries so hard to make the girls kill her? Then I remembered the scene between Altena and sister Borne and began to understand. 

Borne tells Altena that Chloe is dead and that Mireille and Kirika make an assault to the manor. Altena replies:They are the true Noir. The bond between them is stronger. Now they will face their last, their hardest trial. Altena tells Borne about Grand Retoure, the corrupted leadership of Soldats, that Soldats reign the world and that true Noir has to be born. After that, with scared eyes, Borne says to Altena:You have planned it from the beginning. Altena shots her down, so that Borne can't reveal her plans to the Soldats leadership. 

I think I have the same clues like Borne . Grand Retoure, that means to wipe out the complete corrupted leadership of the Soldats. To achieve a new beginning. Like you sometimes cut off the lazy crown of a tree, so that the healthy wood can bring new shoots. Her tool to reach this aim is Noir. Therefore Noir has to be strong. In a survival of the fittest way Altena will figure out which two of the three saplings are the true Noir. She faces them with many trials. The last of them includes to kill her. Weird? Again, I'll explain later. 

One of the trials we can see in episode 25. Chloe tells Mireille, while attacking her:Surprisingly, this is the place where in former times the battle of the Maiden took place. The maiden fought to find out the two for the true Noir. But exactly this is what happens at this moment. As the three girls have near the same strength, it can get a nearly endless battle. With one exception: If two of the maiden team up, because of the strong bond between them, the third will underlay. Thats the intention of this trial. To find out the two maiden with the strong bond. 

This brings us a little closer to the brainwash. Mireille has to come to the manor, so that battle of the maiden can take place. But she never was at the manor before. So how and why she should go there? Kirikas memory loss is one part of Altenas plan to bring Mireille to the manor in special and to bring out the true Noir in generell. 

First of all, let's take a look at the left open questions, if you assume normal memory loss. Why only her personal informations are lost? If it was a protective memory loss, so that she doesn't remember the bad things she had done, why she remembers the many ways to kill people? An think about her situation. Moved to this town immediatly before memory loss. No parents to tell her about past. No friends to tell her about past, because she's new at school. The identity of her parents is a fake, and for sure, also her own. No personal things inside the house, which can give her a clue who she really is. Only a pocket watch. Which seem to connect her past to Mireille Bouquet, known to Kirika as professional assassin. And how did she got this pocket watch? You can be sure, she didn't take it from the crimescene. All this questions are hardly to explain if you assume normal memory loss. 

But if a plan is behind it, and her memory loss is part of it, it's very simple. Let's start with the beginning. It's the killing of the Bouquet family. It was not only done to punish the Bouquets for refusing Altenas order to give Mireille to the manor. Altena tells Mireille at the lava dome about her parents:... I have sacrified them at the altar of the true Noir The killing of her family should raise hatred inside Mireille to whom who is responsible and to whom who hat done it. That Kirika has to do the task should make her feel guilty towards Mireille and links her past to Mireille. Chloe was with Kirika only this time, to be an eye-witness to tell later Mireille what happens. Because Altena had planned at this time to erase Kirikas memories later. 

So the three sablings raised. After they finished their assassination training it was time for the trials. This is the time where Altena had erased Kirikas memories. She implant Kirika the information, that Mireille Bouquet can tell her about her past and how to connect her. This information is triggered with the pocket watch, which Altena may have become from Mireilles uncle, who was Soldat. And she preserves two memories, locked with triggers. The first is who had killed the Bouquet family together with the way to the manor, the second is who gave the order to kill the Bouquets. 

So Mireille, which never was at the manor, is back in the race for true Noir after Kirika had contacted her. The first trigger for Kirikas memories is the final guidance. After Chloe shot at her, her memory of the Bouquet killing returns, and she runs away like she always does if she feels guilty. She's now at the way to the manor. Chloe got order from Altena to tell Mireille the truth. Mireille should come to the manor with the wish to revenge her family, so that she can take part at the battle for the true Noir. That Mireille and Kirika meet at the cemetary and Kirika is begging Mireille to kill her was not part of Altenas plan, it was an accident. Fortunatily for Altena Mireille refuses to kill Kirika. 

Altena has two plans, who can get true Noir. Mireille and Kirika or Kirika and Chloe. This shows the duality of Kirikas personality. She has to fit to this complete different characters. I don't imply that Altena had split Kirikas personality. Kirika had done it herself for self protection. But it happened at the manor, and Altena knew about it and used it in her plans. 

Now we can come to the last trial, as I promised before. Remember Altenas If men can kill for love, then they can do good for hatred. That is, what true Noir is supposed to be. Two maiden. One of them, the younger one, should be devoted in love to the older maiden, which should be the leader of Noir. Filled with this love, the younger should kill for the older no matter who's the target. The task of the leader is to choose the targets by hatred, hatred because the target has betrayed the ideals of the Soldats. And doing so good by cleaning Le Soldats. She has to choose the targets, because Altena will be dead after last trial. The leader is the judge, and together they are the execution command. Remember the Noir seal with the weapons. One showing the Balance of Justice, the other showing two swords. 

That' the trial: The leader hat to kill Altena in hatred, hatred what Altena had done to her as child. If after that, the younger loving part doesn't make an attempt to kill the leader, true Noir is born. Otherwise Altena failed. 

In case Mireille / Kirika is clear: Mireille should kill Altena for being responsible for the death of her family. 

The Kirika / Chloe case is a little bit trickier. Here we need the second preserved memory. At the ceremony Altena would give back the Beretta to Kirika. Kirika should remember who had made her an assassin and gave the order to kill Mireilles family (actually, at this time she may had killed Mireille by herself in the battle of the maiden). In hatred for this, she should kill Altena. The reason that this trigger is used earlier is, that only Kirika Noir returned to the manor. Altena needs both peronalities for her plan. She tried with love to bring back Kirika Blanc (the lullaby scene), but failed. So she made an crazy attempt with hatred. Short time Kirika Blanc returns (Kirika breaks down), but immediatly she disappears. 

And there is always a wildcard in the game: Kirika as true Noir. She has both peronalities in her to be a one (wo)men Noir. She has the best assassination skills of the three maiden. That's intention. Think about the Kirika / Chloe case. If Chloe attacks Kirika after the killing of Altena, crazy about the fact that Kirika actually killed her beloved Altena, Kirika has best chances to defeat Chloe. And true Noir may be born in the form of the two persons that are one. Or is it one person that are two? 

And Mireille / Kirika we see at last episode. If Mireille fails to kill Altena, Altena starts wounding Mireille to bring up hatred in Kirika. After Altena finally kills Mireille, Kirika should kill her and true Noir is born. But Altena fails. Kirika is not longer running away. She faces her both sides, and they reunite. So she becomes true Kirika, which she was before she came to the manor (as child). 

If you can follow me this way, you will figure out that all the orders for assassination for Mireille / Kirika as Noir came from Altena and Les Soldats as part of the trials for true Noir. Assuming this, many riddles and leftover questions will be resolved. 

About two things mentioned in other posts inside this thread: 

Yes, Mireille and Chloe are representations of Kirikas personalities. Mireille is Kirika Noir, the Killer without remorse (at the beginning of the series she definitly is). Chloe represents Kirika Blanc. Love, romance, childish feelings. 

No, the fountain with the three shadows in the colors of the girls isn't a hint for a triple personality inside Kirika. It's the one person that is two (or two persons that are one) thing. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:26 am    Post subject:    

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Wow. It's a good theory. We can never know for sure, of course. 

The main reason why I don't believe Kirika's memory loss is part of an elaborate plan, is that so much was left to blind chance that it seems implausible that something so difficult and with uncertain results was done on purpose. 

If the purpose was to bring Mireille to the Manor, there were a lot easier ways to accomplish that. They could just have trained her with the other two, for example. 

And Mireille didn't learn the way to the Manor from Altena, it was Remi Grpaul who gave her a map, and he did that because he is against Altena and wants to sabotage her plans. So this could not be part of Altena's plan. Also, if Mireille had not found the letter from kirika hidden under the plant, she would very probably not have decided to go to the Manor, or only go to kill Kirika. If Mireille had been a little smarter, she would have realised that Kirika killed her parents before she started to like her, and then the whole plan would have failed also. If Mireille had chosen her uncle, or the uncle had not explained his mission, Kirika would be dead. And I could give many more such examples. 

So in short, I think it is unlikely that Altena did something so complicated as the plan you describe when she doesn't even do something so simple as get Mireille a map to the Manor. She doesn't even give Chloe decent instructions most of the time (and Chloe doesn't always listen either). 

Some more specific comments on your comments: 

I think it was said Kirika moved to her house 6 months before her memory loss, not immediately. She didn't really forgot who she was because she never knew. Even Altena did not know Kirika's real name. She probably doesn't have one. I agree that Kirika's life before the amnesia is a big unknown, but that doesn't prove she was brainwashed. 

Kirika still remembers her skills because without them, she would be killed. If the amnesia is a psychological defense mechanism, it should not leave her defenseless. 

It may be different in the German dub, but I don't think it is explicitely said anywhere that Altena ordered Mireille's parents to be killed. It was said that Soldats did it. It was even strongly implied that somebody else (a high priest) was responsible for choosing the candidates. We know that Altena gave Kirika her gun, but that is only normal if she was responsible for training the Noir candidates. There is no indication, and it is even unlikely, that Kirika got her first gun together with her orders. "See this, child? It's called a gun. Now take it and go kill those Bouquets. What do you mean how? Read the bleeping manual!" 

Borne (what an awful name) was I think expecting that Altena would get great power after she created Noir, and that she could profit from it. She was just as bad as the anti-Altena faction. I don't think she was going to reveal Altena's plan, in fact she was drawing her gun to kill Altena just before Altena shot her. Born didn't care about the old Soldats leadership, she wanted to replace them anyway (that is clear from the discussion while Kirika and Chloe fight with swords), she was upset that Altena didn't want to use Noir to become leader of Soldats. 

A big problem in Altena's plan as you present it, is that it relies excessively on Kirika. There is little point in having the saplings fight, if it is already decided that Kirika must be part of Noir. In this scenario, Chloe did not have a chance, because with her memory erased, irika would never choose her over Mireille. Also, if Mireille had not found Kirika's letter and managed to kill Kirika, the plan would fail. If Kirika had been killed on a job, like she almost was several times, the plan would have failed. It would be very stupid of Altena to deliberately set the odds against a Chloe-Mireille pair, thereby seriously reducing her chances for success. 

I don't think Altena planned to die. But why did Kirika and Mireille follow her into the basement, if not to kill her? It's not as if this was really Altena's decision... 

If there is no elaborate plan and Kirika's amnesia is natural, we can assume that Altena just lets destiny unfold, as she appears to be doing while we see her. Before the final episode we never actually see her do anything that has any influence on events. 

I'm a bit unsure how you imagine Kirika to be the two maidens all by herself... And I'm not quite convinced that when Kirika calls herself Noir, she means to say she is now her "Noir" personality. She never calls herself Blanc for sure... Chloe calls herself Noir, also. Mireille calls her team with Kirika also Noir... 

This is all just my opinions of course.
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:13 pm    Post subject:    

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Yes, it's true, much on Altenas plan relies on the odds. But have one thing in mind: Even if Noir seems to be realistic, there are a strong mystic elements in it. Altena is a believer, and believers behave not always rational. She believes, if she follows the book, the things will go right. She's actually the high priest of the Soldats, and I believe she was also as the saplings had been chosen. 

The point that Kirika may be killed doesn't affect Altena because of two mystic Elements. I don't know if it is disussed in this forum before, but there is a reason why Noir have to be maiden. It's an old believe in many cultures, that pure maiden are nearly invincible in fight. So why believe they could die in fight as long as they remain pure maiden? The other reason is why they call Kirika The Child. It is not because she has no name or they don't know. It is the same reason why god is always is called God or Lord, even if he has a name. It's respect. Kirika is the True Noir. The one, who will bring the Grand Retoure, no matter what way. She manifests all what a true Noir has to be in one person. She's the redeemer. So how she could fail? Think about the people in the village, falling on knees in front of Kirika. I'm not sure if they hat done it in front of Chloe or Mireille. 

Yes, even in german dub isn't explictly said that Altena gave order to kill Mireilles family. But consider the facts: She controls Kirika. Kirika did the task. Altena is the high priest of the Soldats. Who will give the high priest an order? No one! And I repeat. In ending Altena tells Mireille about her parents ... I have sacrificed them on the altar of the true Noir. And Altena as high priest is responsible for the saplings. So, if a family don't give the sapling to the manor, guess who will give order to kill them? The high priest! One thing is clearly said (I think it was Chloe). Korsika was not Kirikas first task, it was the last before she left the manor for further assassin training. I don't think we see Altena as she gives Kirika the Beretta the first time, it's the time for the Bouquet kill. Even if Kirika is trained as assassin, at this time she is a child of lets say 7 years. Who will leave a loaded weapon to a child, even if it's The Child? Altena gives the weapon before every task, and for training, to Kirika and after she had performed Altena will take it back. At this time Altena definitly was the high priest, she wears the same clothes. 

Regarding the saplings fight, you are right, in the constellation like it developed during series Chloe had no chance. But it could have been different. Consider this: Short after Chloe is introduced it is clear, that she loves Kirika. And she shows it to her. Yes, at this time Kirika was already fallen in love to Mireille. But this love seemed not to be responded, because Mireille refuses her own love to Kirika. The reason for her behavior we learn from the episode with the painter. Mireille tells Kirika: Assassins have no friends. So why shouldn't Kirika switch to Chloe? Even if she is high skilled assassin, Kirika is a teenager (15..16 years old). And feelings of teenagers can change in short times. 

This brings me to Mireilles uncle. If Mireille hat decided to save her uncle and to try kill Kirika, what would happen? The most obvious for me is, that Kirika at this time would have killed Mireille in self defense, because of her much higher level in assassination. In this case, Chloe and Kirika had been true Noir. For me, this is another trial. It's not arranged by Altena, she didn't need to arrange it. It is obvious that it will happen. (Or was it even planned by Altena, choosing a sapling with family, which are against Grand Retoure?) Altena knows that Mireilles uncle is against Grand Retoure. So, if his niece is so close to The Child, why not try to convince her to kill The Child. The trial is to figure out how Mireille would behave as leader of Noir if the target is a relative or a friend (Mireilles uncle is Soldat, and Soldats are Mireilles and Kirika's enemies at this time). And Mireille passed the trial by deciding against her uncle. 

Regarding the time since when Kirika moved to the town. What we know is that she moved there 6 month before she met Mireille. We dont know how long Kirika needed to contact Mireille, and we don't know how long Mireille needed to collect the informations regarding Kirika and her parents. But I think it wouldn't have been easy and took a lot of time. I don't think Kirika had full informations how to contact Mireille. I think it again as a trial. Since both are possible leaders of Noir (or Kirika may be a one person Noir), they need the ability to collect informations about their targets. 

The talking between Borne and Altena during sword fight I assume as a proof of my oppinion. Regarding the scene as Altena shots her: I've seen the two final episodes three times, and I never saw Borne draw a weapon. Maybe I'm blind, or they cut it in german version for whatever reason. If Borne has drawn a weapon, this is a more obvious reason for Altena to shot at her then the one I figured out. 

The basement thing is simple. In the book is written: True Noir is born at the lava dome. Altena follows the orders of the book. 

Yes, there are many easier ways to accomplish some tasks. But the saplings have to do it the hard way, to get the best. 

And regarding the map. What you think, should Altena go to Mireille Hi! I'm Altena, I'm responsible for the death of your parents. Here is a map, there you can find me and Kirika.? 
I think, Altenas original plan was, that Mireille should simply follow Kirika. That's the reason why she could be sure that Mireille wouldn't kill Kirika, because she wants both. It failed at the cemetary, where Kirika faced Mireille to get killed from her hands instead running away, so Altena has a new plan. She forces the Noir ceremony. At the manor Altena is save of attacks of Soldats. It's holy ground, and no one of Soldats, even not her opponents, would break it's peace. Only the third sapling can be sent to influence the birth of Noir. And that's what Remi Grpaul tries to do. 

And yes, we actually don't see Altena influence most of the time. But in Noir are so many things, which are not shown but we know. Think about the rape of Altena. Did we see it? No. But we all know it. Think about the pictures we see. A soldier picks up a little girl in a town, destroyed by war. Then he is in a room with her. She lies on a bed, he sets down beside her. Cut. Why we all asume rape? Why no one considers the soldier simply gives a homeless, freightened child a warm bed? Many times in the series scenes with Altena are shown if somthing happens to one of the main characters. So why not consider Altenas influence on the situation. 

Oh god, what am I writing so long? Altena gambled on many possiblities, and at the end she failed. 

Ah so, the concept of the one person Noir. Kirika has both personalities inside her, which make true Noir. If together with another sapling, one side dominates. Together with Mireille, Chloe-like Kirika Blanc dominates. Together with Chloe, Mireille-like Kirika Noir dominates. If alone, the type of Kirika dominates, which fits the situation best. Also the grade of domination adapts to the situation. So she reaches nearly the same effiency as a two maiden Noir. 

So thats my opinon. But I find it wonderful, that so many different points of view are possible. 
 
FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:36 pm    Post subject:    

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Yes, it's great that there can be so many interpretations. I enjoy reading yours. 

I'm pretty sure I remember Borne pulling one of those gold-plated pistols that look like a Walther ppk special. Then Altena shoots her with that revolver Kirika brought with her to the manor, the one she picked up in the cemetary. Perhaps it looked like Altena was drawing the pistol, you need to watch the details in Noir!  

Altena lives in this completely isolated place, how could she influence anything, by magic? It's not the same as something we are not shown, it's simply impossible for someone stuck in a desolate ruin without electricity or a phone to influence events elewhere. And when she sends Chloe somewhere, she basically tells her she can do as she thinks best. Is that a way to control everything that happens? 

If everything happens for mystical reasons then it is not Altena who is in control either. 

Why do you think the book says Noir is born in the lava thing? The other Soldats also have copies of the book but they think Altena will still be alive after the ritual, that is why they send Mireille... Or is this something in the German dub? 

Altena could let Chloe give Mireille a map, or any other way, but the fact is she did nothing to allow Mireille to find the Manor. That is why I find it hard to believe it was part of her plan. If it was not part of her plan, then the reason for brainwashing Kirika disappears, no? 

To me it is unclear if Altena is the holy priest, or if it is somebody else, perhaps the man with the Noir ring who they are expecting for the ritual. There are no lines that makes it explicitely clear that the holy priest is Altena. And some of the dialogue in episode 11 suggests that it is somebody else: 

Man01: Is that you, Chloe? 
Man01: I do not recall summoning you here. 
Man01: My actions have been ordered by the holy priest. 
Man01: Me contacting those two is also part of that contract. 
Man01: "Light and Water for our dealing.." 
Man01: That was supposed to be our policy. 
Man01: The same goes for those two.. 
Chloe: I already know that. 
Man01: Why are you watching me? 
Man01: By what authority? 
Man01: What is Altena thinking? 
Chloe: About Noir's obvious appearance. 
Man01: As I expected, Altena is dangerous. 
Man01: We have no intention of ceasing the Grand Retour. 
Man01: I will report this. 
Chloe: There is no need for that. 
Man01: What does that mean? 
Chloe: This is already concluded. 

It seems to me this man was following orders from the "holy priest" and Altena sent Chloe to stop him. He wants to report to the holy priest that Altena is dangerous. This exchange doesn't make sense if Altena is the holy priest? Also, at various points it is mentioned that Altena will have great power in Soldats after the Noir ritual. The implication is that she doesn't have that power yet. 

The exchange also proves that Altena is not the only one to give orders to Noir candidates, as this man apparently had authority to summon Chloe. Not that it did him much good... So I think it's quite possible that if the high priest is someone else, he could borrow Kirika from Altena and give her the order to kill the Bouquets. It also implies that Altena is not yet the highest authority in Soldats, or even not concerning Grand Retour. 

In the English version, Altena says: 
"However, they were at least useful as sacrificial lambs to be placed upon your altar." 
leaving it unclear if she was the one who sacrificed them.
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:48 pm    Post subject:    

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After you wrote the english version about what Altena saying to Mireille about her parents I've seen the scene again (i have it on VHS) because I wasn't sure, and Altena says ... I could sacrifice them like lambs on your altar, little bit different like I said before, but with the same sense. She defintily says ...I could.... She ordered the kill of Mireilles parents. The scene with Borne you are right, she draws the gun. So I am supposed to be blind. 

Regarding the telephone call, it is obvious that we miss a lot of communication. I don't think we have all answers of Chloe. 

Man01: Is that you, Chloe? 
Man01: I do not recall summoning you here. 
That does not imply that it is not Altenas decision to left over one of the saplings to one of' Soldats. 
Man01: My actions have been ordered by the holy priest. 
May be you are right, and the man with the ring was the holy priest, it doesn't have that much influence at my approach to Noir that you may think. Compared with catholic church, if Altena isn't the pope, she's at least a cardinal, which is powerful enough to give orders to lower ranked Soldats and make own decisions who's been punished and who not. And the other side: the pope may be a powerful man inside catholic church. But outside he is nearly nobody. So with Noir under her control, Altena will gain much more power that she had actually if she really wants. But she doesn't want.. 
Man01: Me contacting those two is also part of that contract. 
Man01: "Light and Water for our dealing.." 
Man01: That was supposed to be our policy. 
Man01: The same goes for those two.. 
Chloe: I already know that. 
Man01: Why are you watching me? 
Man01: By what authority? 
Man01: What is Altena thinking? 
Chloe: About Noir's obvious appearance. 
Man01: As I expected, Altena is dangerous. 
Man01: We have no intention of ceasing the Grand Retour. 
Man01: I will report this. 
Chloe: There is no need for that. 
Why is no need to report if Altena isn't the high priest? ( or was he actually killed at this time? Then it becomes a different sense.) 
Man01: What does that mean? 
Chloe: This is already concluded. 
Same again. 

Between my comments we actually don't know what Chloe replies, exept the lines where her name stands. But the replies of the man don't make really sense if there aren't questions between them. 

Now about the thing with the book. I'm not a believer at all, but I read the Bible and I read the Koran (I actually don't know the english word, but it means means the holy book of moslems). I came to complete different conclusions then the priests and believers of this religions. That's the problem of religious texts, they can be interpreted different ways. So the rest of Soldats must not have Altenas conclusions. And remember, the only person in the world who has an original of this book is Altena. 

I'm not sure if the manor hasn't modern communications. Even if it seems to be old and ruined. I remeber one episode when Chloe sends an email to Kirika. Maybe she had sent it from an internet cafe, during a task she performs. But how can she be sure to receive an answer right in time, as long as she can reach modern communicatons? And at last episode Altena tells Mireille and Kirika that she had watched all the times. Not only Kirika, even Mireille. Altena mus have spies outside (maybe the nuns), an they must communicate with her. Should the go every time they want to report go to the manor? I can't believe. 

And about Chloe, the introduction of her for me is one of the strongest proves of Altenas influence to the saplings. Noir got request for assassination. One corrupted police officer. If they move in to perform the kill, it's already done. I don't remember how, but there is a conclusion that it was Chloe (maybe later in episode). But nonetheless, they get their money. After that, they get request to kill a corrupted judge. Chloe got the same order, and informs the judge that he will be killed this evening. So Noir ran into a trap, and Chloe could do the kill. So two assassins got the same day from different clients the same two targets? And from whom Chloe knows, that there is another assassin after her second target? But if you assume Altena gave the orders, it makes sense. After Chloe, Kirika and Mireille failed to meet during first kill, she ordered the second, with special instructions for Chloe to ensure all three saplings meet for first time. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:05 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
After you wrote the english version about what Altena saying to Mireille about her parents I've seen the scene again (i have it on VHS) because I wasn't sure, and Altena says ... I could sacrifice them like lambs on your altar, little bit different like I said before, but with the same sense. She defintily says ...I could....  

We should check the Japanese to be sure, I suppose. It's even possible at that point that Altena would lie just to provoke Mireille.  
Quote: 
Regarding the telephone call, it is obvious that we miss a lot of communication. I don't think we have all answers of Chloe. 

Huh? What telephone call? Are we watching the same series? 
Quote: 
Chloe: There is no need for that. 
Why is no need to report if Altena isn't the high priest?  

Chloe is about to kill the man, that is why he needs not worry about his report. And wouldn't Altena be a bit too young to be the high priest already? Maybe after she did something important, like create a new Noir... 
Quote: 
And remember, the only person in the world who has an original of this book is Altena. 

Isn't there a scene where they compare copies and see they are from a different book? Anyway the other Soldats have copies. One of the men (the one with the beard) promises Kirika to tell her about the book, so they must know what's in it. 
Quote: 
I remeber one episode when Chloe sends an email to Kirika. 

When was that? I don't remember anything like that. It seems to me Chloe loves to deliver messages in person. Particularly to Kirika. 
Quote: 
Should the go every time they want to report go to the manor? I can't believe. 

We see Chloe get letters from Altena, and Altena reading notes from Chloe. There is probably a post office in that Soldats village. If Altena only wants to be kept informed, no more is needed. And "watching" is not the same as controlling... 
Quote: 
And about Chloe, the introduction of her for me is one of the strongest proves of Altenas influence to the saplings. Noir got request for assassination.  

I always assumed that it was Chloe herself who gave the job to Mireille. Altena tells Chloe that everything is up to her and she has to decide what to do.
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:49 am    Post subject:    

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Wow. Last night I had an idea. Discussing with you is so ispiring, FacelessMinion. It fits so much better if Altena has no power in Soldats. 

First I will answer your last reply. 

Quote: 
Huh? What telephone call? Are we watching the same series? 

The one you have written down 
Quote: 
Isn't there a scene where they compare copies and see they are from a different book? Anyway the other Soldats have copies. One of the men (the one with the beard) promises Kirika to tell her about the book, so they must know what's in it. 

I speak about the original, not about copies. Yes, there have been more originals. But they are all destroyed, the last in the austrian millionaires library, which someone burned down one year before Mireille and Kirika arrived. 
Quote: 
We see Chloe get letters from Altena, and Altena reading notes from Chloe. 

I've assumed that always as some romantic thing. From Chloes side, which loves to write and receive letters. 

I don't remember which episode Kirika received the email from Chloe and I don't remember the contents. Kirika is checking the Noir mailbox and then she tells Mireille: "Chloe wrote me an email" I remember one detail. Chloe used a combination of letters and numbers as signature. I think it must be read upside down to understand it. Mireille was a little bit upset about that. 

Quote: 
I always assumed that it was Chloe herself who gave the job to Mireille. Altena tells Chloe that everything is up to her and she has to decide what to do. 

But the result is the same. The saplings have first contact. Initiated by Altena. 

I will show you a weak point in your theory. If the memory loss is by accident, why doesn't Altena send Chloe to help Kirika to remember? Or why doesn't Chloe tell what she knows after they met? She doesn't answer questions for Kirikas past. 

And now my astonishing discovery. I was wrong if I assumed Altena is the high priest or something like a cardinal. She's simply the Abbess of something like The Order of true Noir. She's responsible for the spiritual advice of the saplings, for the ceremony and maybe to choose the trials. 

I think the saplings would be given in an age of 3..4 years to Altena and leave her at the age of 6...7 years, so that they can go to normal school beside their assassin training. The spiritual advice is the reason why no modern things are at the manor. The saplings shouldn't be distracted. That doesn't imply that there are no modern communications at the manor. As abbess Altena needs to contact their order. I think there will be a communications room with a satellite phone and a computer and for power supply are some hidden solar panels at the manor. I think I have seen a monitor at the manor for one or two seconds in one episode, maybe that's a picture from another series, but the ambient fits to the manor. 

And now a little fanfic: 

Mireille has reached the age to go to the manor. Altena is at the Bouquets house to take Mireille with her. 

Altena: Hello. I'm Altena. I'm here to take the blessed child to the manor. 
Bouquets: No. We don't want our daughter to get an assassin. 
Altena: I repeat. Leave me your daughter. 
Bouquets: No way. We don't believe in your ideals, in Noir and Grand Retour. You don't have the power to force us to give our daughter to you . 
Altena: No matter what you try, she's a blessed child. In the end she has to face the same trials like the other saplings. 
Bouquets: Leave our house! 
Altena: One day you will pay for this. 

2...3years later Kirika comes to the manor. Altena not only gives her spiritual advice but also assassin training to get her revenge to Bouquets. This assassin training and the tasks are the reason why Kirika broke into two personalities. She simply was to young. 
1 or 2 years later Chloe arrives at the manor. She lives with Kirika in one room.Together they learn about the true Noir. Chloe doesn't get assassin training at the manor. She gets only love from Altena and responses with love. From time to time Kirika leaves the manor to perform the tasks Altena gives her. Chloe doesn't know what the tasks are. But if Kirika returns and has accomplished the task, Altena is really happy. Chloe loves Kirika for making Altena happy. 
1 or 2 years later. Altenas time has come. She gives Kirika her last task: Kill Mireilles family, but leave Mireille alive. This time Chloe acompanies her, to be an eye-witness like I assumed. As the child with the gun enters the room, Odette Bouquet knows from whom it's sent. She remembers what Altena said about the trials, and therefore she gives Kirika the order to protect Mireille during the trials. And Chloe sees what seem to make Altena happy. Killing people! So she decided herself to get the best assassin of the world. 
Uncle Claude leaves Corsica together with Mireille. He gives her assassin training, that she may possibly survive the trials, not because he believes in Grand Retoure and true Noir. 

Now you see why I'm thinking that it fits better if Altena has no power in Soldats. It explains why Odette had given Kirika this strange order, and why is so much time between denial of order and punishment. Mighty Soldats would have orderd the kill immediatly, and Mireille had been taken to the manor. And it shows how much time Altena had to develop this sophisticated plan (5...7 years). If Mireilles parents had given her to the manor, all that tricky things to bring her to the fight of the saplings hadn't been necessary and Noir would have been a simple action anime. 

Altenas influence to the fate of the saplings isn't given by the power over a group of Soldats. It's her ability to manipulate people, controlling their behavior by giving informations, disinformations and hiding informations, like she did with Kirika by erasing her memories. She relies on the help of other believers. And in Chloes abilities to wipe out people who can get dangerous to her plans. I'm not sure but I think Chloe had killed the high priest, which could interfere Altenas plans. I think, even if Altena has no power inside Soldats, as abbess of the Order of the true Noir she is after the high priest the second highest religious instance regarding Noir. By killing the high priest she can decide the trials. 

Again I have to correct in one point. 
The point is Borne, here you are right. She realizes that Altena doesn't want absolute power. She didn't realize Altenas whole plan. Borne isn't only a believer in true Noir and Grand Retour. She also wanted to part Altenas power after return of Noir. 

And now I try to highlight why Altena wants to die and if so, why she escapes first. 
Altenas wish to make Noir come true is driven by the memories of her childhood. She has the hope, that after Noir cleaned up Le Soldats, and Le Soldats return to their roots, children never again have to face war and crime. After true Noir is born, she wants them to kill her to end the endless pain of her childhood memories. But she must be sure that Noir is born, therefore she escapes the first time. That her dream had come true, and that the pain will end is the reason why she laughs after the rape scene. She's happy. 

This means not that she doesn't want to bring hatred into the heart of the Noir leader. Characters in Noir have multiple reasons to do what they do. 

At the end, as the one she assumes to be the true Noir, The Child, is willing to sacrifice her live to save her love, Altena is overwhelmed or shocked. I think she realizes, that what she had done to the saplings, especially Kirika, is as worse as what happened to her as child. In the scene between Altena looses hold and Mireille catches Kirika we only see Altenas clothing. My assumption is this: Kirika sees Altena doesn't have any longer hold and gives up her lock. In a last noble gesture Altena lifts up Kirika to the corsican sapling while falling down. Now she can find everlasting peace. It is the only plausible conclusion how Mireille could have reached Kirika without falling into the lava. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:01 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Wow. Last night I had an idea. Discussing with you is so ispiring, FacelessMinion.  


Thank you. I feel the same. Just to clarify something, I don't hold a strong view on whether or not Altena ordered the killing of Mireille's family, what I realised and found interesting is that there is no clear evidence in the series either way. It continues to amaze me how they could leave so many things unclear so people could form different opinions. Almost every time I watch Noir I find something that I thought I knew isn't certain at all, but was only assumption on my part. 

Quote: 
Quote: 
Huh? What telephone call? Are we watching the same series? 

The one you have written down 


This was not a telephone call, it's in episode 11 where Chloe is suddenly standing behind the man with the mustache. 

Quote: 
But they are all destroyed, the last in the austrian millionaires library, which someone burned down one year before Mireille and Kirika arrived. 

I always thought Soldats took the book and then burned the library to make it appear that it was destroyed. The professor K&M visit says they are all destroyed, but this is obviously not true because Altena still has one. So it is possible that other originals still exist and were only "officially" destroyed. 

Quote: 
I don't remember which episode Kirika received the email from Chloe and I don't remember the contents. Kirika is checking the Noir mailbox and then she tells Mireille: "Chloe wrote me an email" I remember one detail. Chloe used a combination of letters and numbers as signature. I think it must be read upside down to understand it. Mireille was a little bit upset about that. 


I would be really grateful if you could remember which episode it was, because I remember nothing like that. The only time I remember Kirika goes even near a computer was in the episode with Rosaly Hammond... 

Quote: 
I will show you a weak point in your theory. If the memory loss is by accident, why doesn't Altena send Chloe to help Kirika to remember? Or why doesn't Chloe tell what she knows after they met? She doesn't answer questions for Kirikas past. 


I'm glad you ask, as it gives me a chance to explain why I dont think it is a weak point but actually supports my theory  

If Kirika's memory loss was self-induced, Altena and Chloe would realise that Kirika is repressing her memories because she has trouble to handle them. In that case, it wouldn't work to just tell Kirika straight away "You're the evil *censored* that killed Mireille's parents", it could drive her completely insane. So it is reasonable that they want to do this very carefully, and not tell her anything clearly until Kirika is ready. If we assume Altena or Chloe are giving assasination jobs to Mireille and Kirika, could this not be to help Kirika remember? In fact I think Chloe almost spoils it by trying to tell Kirika who she is before she is ready, in episode 19, Chloe almost reveals everything, and Kirika becomes hysterical, shouting for Chloe to stop. To me that clearly shows that (1) Kirika doesn't WANT to remember, and (2) Chloe is trying to make kirika remember. 

Quote: 
I think there will be a communications room with a satellite phone and a computer and for power supply are some hidden solar panels at the manor.  


We can imagine anything we want to happen off-screen, but we never see any proof that they even have electricity or running water. They use candles for lighting and go to a pond outside to take a bath! 

Quote: 
why is so much time between denial of order and punishment. Mighty Soldats would have orderd the kill immediatly, and Mireille had been taken to the manor.  


Sorry, why do you think there was much time between the Bouquets refusal and the killing? Anything in the series supports this? 

Quote: 
And now I try to highlight why Altena wants to die and if so, why she escapes first. 
 


One of my theories is that Altena thinks she can take the burden of sins on herself, and that in this way a "pure" Noir will be born, instead of a dark one. If this was her plan then we could even say that it succeeded in the end. 

I think however that Altena didn't want to die originally, but that she decided this when she got the news that Chloe was killed (because she really loved Chloe). 

Quote: 
It is the only plausible conclusion how Mireille could have reached Kirika without falling into the lava. 


I agree that it looks like Altena saved Kirika from falling in the end. It can be because she thought Kirika was become a true Noir, or maybe she just saved Kirika because she could. I don't think Altena is EVIL, she doesn't hurt people because she likes it, if she saw a chance to save Kirika's life, she may well do it without ulterior motives...
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:32 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
In fact I think Chloe almost spoils it by trying to tell Kirika who she is before she is ready, in episode 19, Chloe almost reveals everything, and Kirika becomes hysterical, shouting for Chloe to stop. To me that clearly shows that (1) Kirika doesn't WANT to remember, and (2) Chloe is trying to make kirika remember. 
 

Okay, here we are close to the end. Altena needs Kirika back to the manor, and so Chloe should make her remember. That Kirika doesn't want to remember has for me this reason: She has contract with Mireille to kill her after she got memories back. She loves Mireille, she's happy to be close to her. Why she should let it end? Better to have no memories and live with Mireille together as long as possible. 
Quote: 
Sorry, why do you think there was much time between the Bouquets refusal and the killing? Anything in the series supports this? 
 
Its the talk between Altena and Kirika at the manor, as Kirika asks if she is born at the manor. Altena replies somthing like:"no, but you have been here the most important time of your life". For child development it is afaik the time between 3..4 to 6..7 years. As I assume Mireille 9..10 years as her parents had been killed it makes 5...7 years from the time she had probably to enter the manor. The time you can read from the fanfic in my last posting. Regarding the ages of the of Mireille and Kirika we have two hints: Kiraka is 15/16, since she is as old as the daughter of one target, which actually has 16. birthday when they kill her father. Mireille at least must be 18, because she can drive car. So as I assume Kirika 6..7 years I have a clue of Mireilles age at this time. 

I think the email was one or two episodes after moonlit teaparty, but I'm not sure. I wondered also Kirika checking the email because normally Mireille does. 
 
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:59 am    Post subject:    

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I have found Chloes signature somewhere in the web: l33t5p34k 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:32 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
I have found Chloes signature somewhere in the web: l33t5p34k 

Link please? Or is it a joke? How do you know it's Chloe if she doesn't use her name? 

I didn't find any email from Chloe; 

ep 10: Chloe's Paris debut 
ep 11: tea party 
ep 12: Chloe's day of fun 
ep 13: painter guy, no Chloe 
ep 14: uncle Claude, no Chloe 
ep 15-16: Shao Li, no emails 
ep 17: Mireille finds new friend in Corsica, no Kirika 
ep 18: Kirika stealing toys, no emails 
ep 19: trip to Austria, no emails 
ep 20: wild party on Mireille's rooftop, end of her computer
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:40 pm    Post subject:    

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It from a result of a test what type of noir-Charakter you are. If you are Mireille-type, they refer to this scene. I didn't say Chloe was in this episode, only an email from her. Unfortunatly you can not link to the result, only display it at a website. ant then it doesnt show the reference to this scene: 

<div align="center"><img src="http://www.intoccabile.net/kirika/images/fan-mireille.jpg" alt="You are a CASUAL FAN! (Mireille)"><br clear="all"><a href="http://www.intoccabile.net/kirika/fanarchetypesquiz.htm"><font style="font-size:12px" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans serif">What's your Noir Archetype?</a> ~*~ <a href="http://www.intoccabile.net/kirika">la petite mort</a></font></div> 
 
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:52 pm    Post subject:    

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Follow that link: 

http://www.intoccabile.net/kirika/fanarchetypesquiz.htm 

The answers are: 
1) 1 
2) 1 
3) 2 
4) 1 
5) 3 
6) 1 
7) 1 
 3 
10) 1 
11) 1 
12) 1

Last edited by FallenAngel on Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:00 pm    Post subject:    

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You mean this: 

Quote: 
Mireille types are casual fans who like their fandom a lot, but aren't obsessed with it. In fact, they tend not to get overly obsessed about anything, and are pretty laid-back all around.... although their animosity towards Fangirls is usually palpable. Let's face it, the real reason Mireille hates Chloe is the l33t5p34k she uses in her emails. 


That's our fellow member Sprite's excellent site. I regret to inform you that I think you were deceived by her sense of humour. 4|\|d 1t 0|\|ly 54y5 C|-|l03 wr1t35 3m41l5 1|\| l33t5p34k... 
 

If you didn't get it yet, read this: 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A787917
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:09 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
I regret to inform you that I think you were deceived by her sense of humour. 


Not at all. Kirika definitly got an email from Chloe where this combination has been used, and Mirelle didn't really like it. As I read your listing of episodes, I believe its at the beginning of the painter episode. 

As i read im not so sure if I really have seen this combination since I can not prove it. But the mail was real. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:12 pm    Post subject:    

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I just watched episodes 13, 14 and 15 again, and didn't see Kirika receive any email from Chloe or anyone else. There is a letter from Soldats in episode 15, but that's it. As much as I love to rewatch Noir episodes, I would prefer if you could confirm when Kirika gets this email from Chloe. I might start to believe it was perhaps in your imagination...  

Or was this in a teaser or an episode preview or something?
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:37 pm    Post subject:    

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No, I definitly have seen this scene. Now I remember it a little bit more. The email was written in this l33t5p34k way, and I thought "How to hell can Kirika read this". And Mireille was upset because it was written that way. But at the moment nothing what reminds me which episode it was. I believe it was at the beginning of an episode, but I'm not sure. They repeat the series actually, and I watch it again. But it will take a while, because they send 2 episodes per week. And last week they startet to repeat. 

Quote: 
That's our fellow member Sprite's excellent site. 

Why don't you ask her?. Maybe she knows to which episode she refers. 

As I watched today episodes 1 and 2 again, one question came up related to your self protective memory loss theory. If she want's to protect herself, why she remembers a person who can possibly help her? 
 
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:27 pm    Post subject:    

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*looks at DVDs, and the scripts* 

...maybe it was a bonus scene for the German release? Or a bizzare amalgum of that bit where someone drops off a letter saying "go to Taiwan" and Mireille decoding the bottle from Vanel? L33tspeak? Chloe? Either I suppressed the memory, or its been implanted in someone via post-hypnotic suggestion, 'cause I'm not recalling it. 

Anyway, I think a post I made last night was so incoherent and huge it, um, broke the site. So here's teh relevant bit. 

Fallen. Love your interpretation of the Noir symbol. Allow me to run with it. 

Altena, at some point, turns to religion. She has both a dim view of humanity and (by association) herself. She learns of the Noir legend, and interprets it thus: 
- Noir are the hands of the Soldats 
- The Soldats originally protected the people of the world from the evils that men (possibly with heavy emphasis on "men") do through the surgical application of said evil. A carefully placed body here and there will keep the human race from descending into barbarism 
- [Side note: in all likelyhood, it was the Soldats themselves that did that unspeakable evil; this is there way of covering it up.] 
- The Soldats are currently, for lack of a better word, the Illuminati, ruling the world instead of protecting it. 
- Let's get symbolic. The Noir logo shows two women, both armed and all pure-like, before the radiant Scales. Two women protecting/service Justice (theoretically the Soldats). 
- If we are to restore the original mission of the Soldats, Justice itself must be purified. The two hands of the Soldats will have to turn upon them, creating a nifty situation where Justice strangles itself to death. 

The last point probably doesn't make sense, but could if you thought all humanity was evil, and felt more than a little disgusted/ashamed of yourself after a soldier did something unspeakable to your favorite stuffed doll. 

A plan of action forms. 

Get some really, really good assassins. Reproduce in them the feelings of hatred and dedication to vengence you feel, and make them so committed to the cause of vengence (a part of justice) that they will do whatever it takes to serve it. Such a pair would be able to cleanse the Soldats, restore them to their former glory, and thus redeem all of humanity. 

Now, things go wrong when Chloe bites it. She has a crisis of faith. We see Altena reading over the Big Book of Noir for the umpteenth time; presumably, she's hoping in vain that The Book will have some guidance for her. Feeling more than a little guilty with herself (she's sinned and sinned and sinned and now she's indirectly killed someone she could call daughter), she tries to figure out what to do next. 

It's safe to say that she goes a bit loopy here. 

A new interpretation arises. 

- Noir serves the Soldats. However, it is the High Priestess who commands Noir; she literally holds those radiant Scales. 
- If justice has to be cleansed, then she, as the person holding the Scales, should be the first to go. 
- If Noir kills her, they'll be well on their way to finishing the whole business. 
- As an added bonus, by being punished by those she did wrong, she may find some sort of redemption. 

There's a problem here, one I doubt Altena realizes: Justice is more than vengence. Vengence is a great burning sword that, left unsheathed, consumes all, and ultimately itself. There's a very good chance Noir will either get killed or kill itself once this thing is all over. 

So, Altena ducks into a secret stairwell, and dares Noir to come after her. She does everything she can think of to drive Noir to violence. Her entire religious life hinges on this moment. If she does not create Noir, the entire world, and her immortal self, will be doomed to a hell of guilt and sin. 

However, Mireille and Kirika have (subconsciously) worked out an alternative thesis. 

- So, there's, like, two chicks with swords? Before the Scales? 'Kay, they serve Justice then. 
- But there are two sides to that scale: guilty and innocent, vengence and forgiveness. 
- Hence, hatred (alone) can never yadda yadda. 

When Mireille and Kirika refuse to kill her, Altena thinks she's failed and prepares to blow them away. 

But she hasn't. 

The soon-to-be-released-in-North-America movie "Hero" talks about four symbols that, properly interpreted, provide one with all the knowledge of a perfect warrior. No one, however, knows what the fourth symbol is. The villain of the piece has an epiphany: the fourth represents The Warrior At Rest. The true warrior must not only know how to take life, but when to stop. 

Mireille and Kirika, through all they've been through, have learned this. Mireille has effectively forgiven Kirika for the death of her parents, and Kirika has forgiven herself for all she's done ("I accept these sins as Yuumura yadda yadda"). They have internalized Justice in its purest form, and are the living embodiment of that swanky logo. 

When Altena's hanging over her doom, I think she realizes this. Part of her says, "The True Noir! I've done it! Whee!" Another says, "Hey, whaddya know, I was wrong. Gosh, I feel like scum, now." Devotion combined with guilt drives her to not only save Kirika, but also take her own life. 

In the end, we have Kirika and Mireille as a sort of natural force for Justice on four legs. They are beyond simple names and occupations; no force can stand against them. They are free to choose their own way, free from the endless cycle (clock!) of vengence the Soldats had perpetuated. 

[Insert whatever you like from Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces here.] 

That's a darn cool watch, isn't it?
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:40 am    Post subject:    

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Wow. Good approach. Like it. 

Regarding the email, I figured it out. Seems, the longer I discuss, the more I remember. It's at the beginning of the episode FacelessMinion Calls "Chloes fun day". It spans the bow from K & M to Chloe. Contents is, that Chloe enjoyed moonlit tea party and hope they can repeat it someday. Its a tricky piece of the plot. It's written in the l33t5p34k because Mireille can't read it, what makes her upset. Kirika has to read loud, so viewer get's contents. Despite to other episodes, Kirika this time checks Noir mailbox, because Mireille had thrown away this email. And it gives a reason to show what Chloe is doing. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:41 am    Post subject:    

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Do the German TV guys sometimes make up scenes by using images from a series and putting their own text to it? I think I've seen this happen on French TV occasionally, usually as a kind of preview for some game show that follows the series or something. I don't think I'll find it in the episodes. Too bad, it sounds like a funny scene... 

Quote: 
As I watched today episodes 1 and 2 again, one question came up related to your self protective memory loss theory. If she want's to protect herself, why she remembers a person who can possibly help her? 

My theory is that, to absolve herself from her guilt, Kirika wants Mireille to kill her, subconsiously at first, openly later on. That is why she finds Mireille, why she always protects Mireille, why she does crazy things like handing Mireille her loaded gun after first meeting her, and she doesn't mind that Mireille will kill her, but she can't allow herself to be killed by anyone else. It's maybe not very convincing as explanation but to me it explains what happens.
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:14 am    Post subject:    

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It does, however, make sense if we put Kirika on the same thematic path as Altena. 

If Noir is an agent of Justice, ultimately, it must judge itself. This is essentially what Altena originally planned; have Noir look at its head (the Soldats) and enact judgement upon it. However, since she believe justice = vengence, she essentially consigns Noir to death by suicide, seeing as their sins are "unforgiveable." 

[By the way, every time I write 'vengence', I think 'Ghost Rider.' Pennace Stare! Man, Overpower was a great game until expansion set 3387 came along...] 

However, as agents of Justice, Noir would have to be able to mete out punishment and forgiveness, even if the person being forgiven is themselves. 

Kirika would start the show (subconsciously) on Altena's wavelength: she believes her sins are unforgiveable, and seeks punishment/redemption from outside. When Mireille refuses to give it, she is forced to realize that forgiveness, ultimately, comes from within. 

This is actually a line of thought I'm working into the otherwise hysterical "Noir: Contracts." 

As for Chloe the 133t h@x0r m@st0r... sorry, Fallen, don't got that one on my copy. No letter in the close of Episode 11 (tea party), no Kirika or Mireille in person or voice-0ver in 12 (Chloe Go Stab Happy), and Kirika's too addled with that hunk of man-flesh in Episode 13 to care about Chloe. 

By the way, this screen is freeeeeeeeeeeeeaky. 

http://www.stormpages.com/tomoyo/ep11/64.jpg 

Eeee! 

....wait, I guess the REAL challenge is finding a picture where Chloe isn't intimidating.
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:21 am    Post subject:    

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I PM'ed Sprite about the l33t comment so perhaps she will join in later. 

Could you be confusing with the letter in episode 15? In this episode Altena's voice tells us she sent Noir on a mission to Taiwan. The request was a paper letter that mysteriously appeared in Mireille's appartment. It was signed Soldats. Kirika read the letter and Mireille didn't like it. 

By the way, this shows that Altena indeed gives at least one mission to K&M. However, the way the request is made (letter left in appartment, signed Soldats, and Chloe going to assist) is totally different from all other job requests they get, so it is hard to conclude anything from it about whether Altena had any direct part in their other jobs. 

Nope, it's not in episode 12 either... I just got a crazy thought, though; episode 12 starts with Chloe reading Altena's letter, followed by the evil Germans being really evil and doing very evil things. Is it possible that this was perhaps edited for broadcast on German TV? And they put in some hack job made up scene to cover it?
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:07 am    Post subject:    

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I'm really sure I've seen the scene. With the time come more and more details, but no hint which episode. This with episode 12 was a conclusion, but seems to be wrong. Unfortunatly in the german repetition they send only 2 episodes per week, so it will last a while until I see them again. I remember one spooky detail what happened to me. I've seen this email and thought: Whats this on the screen? Is this Japanese, translatet to roman letters, numbers and graphical signs? And why would Chloe write Japanese, I considered her French? And now the spooky thing: Next day at work I searched in internet for an electronic part. I'm little bit lazy, so I do this by entering its number, mostly the first part. In the most cases it's selective enough, since this number/letter combinations are very unique. And this part began... Any clue? With l33. I entered it, an the heading of the first site I found was l33t5p34k ! 
Really, not kidding. At the forecast of the site I saw the same combinations like in Chloes email. I've read this site, but since it had no worth for me I forgot about it. But it may be the reason that I connected l33t5p34k with Chloes signature. 
Now a little bit different. Meanwhile I'm convinced that there is no modern communication at the manor. I have another clue: Near the manor must be a nunnery, since the nuns came without luggage by feet. Maybe the manor belongs to the nunnery. And Altena needs food, so they bring her dayly food, letters, messages and get instructions and letters from her. And Altena is not the abbess of the "Order of true Noir", she's a priestess of them, special task: growing saplings. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:40 am    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
I have another clue: Near the manor must be a nunnery, since the nuns came without luggage by feet. Maybe the manor belongs to the nunnery. And Altena needs food, so they bring her dayly food, letters, messages and get instructions and letters from her. 


It's not unlikely that there is a convent close by, but on the other hand the nuns may come a long way. Everyone in Noir can get everywhere by simply walking. Kirika walks from Paris to the Spanish border. Chloe walks away from the Manor and a little later she is in Taiwan. In episode 12 she walks from Paris to Austria, then to East Germany and then back to the Manor, also without any luggage. 

Or maybe their tour bus was parked just behind the ruined mausoleum so we didn't see it.  

And I think someone proposed a theory that Altena survives on grapes and wine, so she doesn't need food.  
On the other hand, I don't think she and Chloe could drink all that wine alone, so the nuns probably don't live too far away. 

More seriously, we know the Soldats village is very close to the Manor, the people there could probably provide Altena with anything she can't grow herself, and take care of her mail, transport to the airport, etc. even if there was nobody else nearby.
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:01 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
More seriously, we know the Soldats village is very close to the Manor, the people there could probably provide Altena with anything she can't grow herself, and take care of her mail, transport to the airport, etc. even if there was nobody else nearby. 

I didn't come to this conclusion. Think about Kirika. She leaves Soldats village in the evening. As she arrives at the manor, it's late afternoon, if I remember right. And Kirika is in real good shape. And I can't remember that I've seen cars at the village. Except the one of the Soldats representives which had been killed. 
 
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 219
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:42 pm    Post subject:    

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I think the Soldats' village must be her supplier and her contact to the outside world. The fact that one of the Soldats' bigshots who later gets killed asks that his message be delivered to Altena suggests that they take everything to her she needs, including mail, food etc. 

Kirika must be really strong to walk across almost an entire country and make it alive (barely).
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:59 pm    Post subject:    

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Well, "she is Noir" and all that. Long distance forced-marches are probably part of the curriculum. They teach it to all the first year students then hit them with "Advanced Vehicular Operation (Heavy Armor, Aircraft, Mecha)" in the second semester. 

That, or she's got some of those stupid shoes with roller-skates in them. 

Still, considering her mental state, I don't think she'd take public transit or anything. 

*Kirika is standing at a taxi stop* 
*driver arrives* 
Riding Bean: Where to, lady? 
Kirika: *blank stare of death* 
RB: Well?! 
Kirika: *Ibid.* 
RB: Weirdo. *speeds off* 

I suspect Kirika hopped into the Seine, rode it to the border, got out, then trudged the last few miles on foot. Hey, if Aragorn can do forty leagues in four days, why not our favorite little gloom-muffin? 

....Don't answer that. 

Considering how zoned-out she was, she probably just kept on walking while her brain stem filtered out all those irritating messages her body was sending up. Things like "Uh, legs wearing to stumps, here?" and that. Sort of a mind over matter thing where she gets there on willpower alone. 

Addition: I strongly suspect this has been mentioned elsewhere, but Gunslinger Girls is probably an accurate interpretation of the training Kirika would have went through (getting back to the topic at hand). Except probably with more beatings and fewer starry nights.
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:53 am    Post subject:    

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Sorry for the delay, everyone; been on a Noirish tour of Paris and Corsica (no kidding). 

Anyway, yes, the l33t5p34k thing on my site was a joke. I've never seen such a thing in the series; I guess the German dubbers could have hacked such a scene together, but it's unlikely. The joke was just to illustrate that the "Chloe" archetype represents an uber-fangirl, the type who would use l33t, which someone like Mireille would think was extremely vulgar and beneath her. 

Quote: 
Addition: I strongly suspect this has been mentioned elsewhere, but Gunslinger Girls is probably an accurate interpretation of the training Kirika would have went through (getting back to the topic at hand). Except probably with more beatings and fewer starry nights. 


Hai, hai.  She could tell you a few things herself if you'd take the word of an anime character who lives in someone else's head on this topic. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:36 am    Post subject:    

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Do tell us about your Noirish tour (or put a report on your site)  

There may be more than one Kirika-chan living in people's heads but I'd listen to any of them that feels up to talking about it... though I would understand if she'd rather not...
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:20 pm    Post subject:    

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@ Sprite Revenchatte: 
Quote: 
Anyway, yes, the l33t5p34k thing on my site was a joke. 

Yes it's true, I've already apologized for this (unfortunatly in another topic). So because I brought it up in this topic, I'll say it again: Since I had no holidays during last two years (at the moment I'm enyoing it together with friends), my memories are a little bit in disorder. So I had read your site, found a site about l33t5p34k and had a dream after "Season of Hell", where Kirika receives an email from Chloe in l33t5p34k. My mind exchanged the order, and so became your site, which was one reason for this dream, the proof that it was real.
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The one, who brought the light. 
To Earth. And to men. 
The first Angel, who felt remorse. 
The only Angel, who felt ever. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:30 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Do tell us about your Noirish tour (or put a report on your site) 


It'll go up on my journal, probably ( http://www.livejournal.com/users/eclective ), in due time. T'was fun.  

Quote: 
There may be more than one Kirika-chan living in people's heads but I'd listen to any of them that feels up to talking about it... though I would understand if she'd rather not... 


I'm actually curious as to how many there may be.... We've known a couple of people who purported to have a Kirika but who didn't ring true with us or other people who encountered them (for one reason or another they were trying to either manipulate us, or another person), but I'd be interested to know of any who seemed genuine, since I think I've only heard of one other person having one (was it you, in fact?) and didn't actually know them. 

As for talking, she probably wouldn't do it right off the bat nor on a public forum, not immediately anyway. (She may let me say some things.... she might also be better at answering questions put to her. She has periods of wanting to talk about it and not wanting to; usually she wants to clarify when people have misconceptions, at least.) But she feels at least more at ease to know that people here (one person at least) would take her seriously if she talked.... It feels slightly odd for her to know that oftentimes, people will consider a scriptwriter's word more "canon" than the same words coming from her own mouth, but obviously I understand that it's extremely hard for people to accept that she has any sort of existence beyond the anime. (There is a big distinction between me and her. What she thinks is not necessarily what I do.) For the record, she's been with us about two years or so now; she's grown quite a bit emotionally but she's still pretty much the Kirika we all know and love. She actually did some painting while we were in Paris, which we're going to put online because others want to see it..... 

Also, sorry FallenAngel for not noticing your apology; I'd only been back one day and hadn't had time to check the entire site........ 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:43 am    Post subject:    

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Uh, no, I don't "have" a Kirika. I did mention a few weeks ago that while working on my webcomic, I had a feeling as if Kirika dropped by briefly to make me alter her script. She hasn't been back again. 

What I meant was that I have no clue if this or that is "the" Kirika, or "a" Kirika, or different manifestations of a universal Kirika-ness or whatever, but as far as I'm concerned they all need to be hugged and fed sweets, so I don't really care about the philosophical details... 

If you would take questions, maybe a clearly marked new thread is more appropriate? So as not to spook the casual visitors and stuff? My first question would have to be how she's feeling now, of course, and how her memory is these days.
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Visit my Noir webcomic: Souvenir Noir 
 
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:35 pm    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
Also, sorry FallenAngel for not noticing your apology; I'd only been back one day and hadn't had time to check the entire site........ 
 

No need to excuse, it was my fault to change the topic for the apology. 
Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
...but I'd be interested to know of any who seemed genuine, since I think I've only heard of one other person having one (was it you, in fact?) and didn't actually know them.  

I dont't remember to read it from FacelessMinion, but because I didn't read all topics, I simply may have missed it. I'm definitly wrote in the topic "First time you saw Noir" that I'm believe that I think and feel like Kirika, and I'm sure I'd repeated it in other topics, maybe also this one. That doesn't mean I'm really like her, since we were grown under different circumstances. But during the whole series I felt, if I had the same backround/past like her, I would have made the same decisions, would have behaved the same way. 
FacelessMinion wrote: 
If you would take questions, maybe a clearly marked new thread is more appropriate? So as not to spook the casual visitors and stuff? My first question would have to be how she's feeling now, of course, and how her memory is these days. 
 

I agree, a new topic would be necessary to do this. It sounds really funny, and I can imagine to take the part of Kirika. There is a little problem with this, for next week I'm not sure if I have access to internet. I'm actuallly at holidays (this week at home), but next week I will go to France to use the French I'd learned at evening school. So there may be at least one week of delay with my answers.
_________________
The one, who brought the light. 
To Earth. And to men. 
The first Angel, who felt remorse. 
The only Angel, who felt ever. 
 
AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 219
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:01 pm    Post subject:    

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I wish I had a Kirika. (sulks) 

The whole thing about Chloe's email is nowhere in any of the episodes, and I took the liberty of checking all of them (hey, it was an excuse for a Noir marathon and I'm sick). That could very easily have been added. 

Oh, I forgot to mention: My ex-boyfriend told me that he stumbled upon a Noir movie on the internet that was clearly done by fans, seeing as it was post series and Chloe was still alive. Yeah. Unfortunately, he never told me where it was and I am forbidden to contact him. (growls)
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"Watashi wa rurouni, gozaru yo." 
~Kenshin Himura 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:40 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Uh, no, I don't "have" a Kirika. I did mention a few weeks ago that while working on my webcomic, I had a feeling as if Kirika dropped by briefly to make me alter her script. She hasn't been back again. 


Ah, okies. Sounded like what you had was a short-term version of what I have. I get the "droppings-by" too, of various characters. We had Matilda (of Leon fame) in here for a night..... 

Quote: 
What I meant was that I have no clue if this or that is "the" Kirika, or "a" Kirika, or different manifestations of a universal Kirika-ness or whatever, but as far as I'm concerned they all need to be hugged and fed sweets, so I don't really care about the philosophical details... 


::kawaiiface:: Hehe... that they do. XD Actually the "is it the Kirika, a Kirika or a manifestation of Kirikaness" (replace Kirika with any given character here) comes up a lot in the community. (That community being the soulbonding, or muses community. One place we congregate can be found here: http://www.livejournal.com/community/soulbonding though there are many others. Basically the people-who-have-characters-in-their-head community, whether through the natural process of writing a character and getting attached to them, or picking them up through anime, movies, books etc. I'm somewhere between the ideas that she (my Kirika)'s "the" Kirika in the sense that she lived a life identical or near-identical to anime-Kirika's on some plane, has her name, her appearance, voice etc., but is also "a" Kirika in that she's not the only one to have this background and that there are doubtless others, and that possibly all these Kirikas are manifestations of a.... uh... universal Kirikaness...... hm.. this sounds weird even to me. XD XD But, something like that. We're not quite sure where she's from or how she came to be, but like you said, she [i]is/[i], and that's all that really matters, I guess. 

Quote: 
If you would take questions, maybe a clearly marked new thread is more appropriate? So as not to spook the casual visitors and stuff? My first question would have to be how she's feeling now, of course, and how her memory is these days. 


Sounds good to me. I'll/she'll/whoever feels best up to responding will post when the new thread goes up. 

Quote: 
I agree, a new topic would be necessary to do this. It sounds really funny, and I can imagine to take the part of Kirika. There is a little problem with this, for next week I'm not sure if I have access to internet. I'm actuallly at holidays (this week at home), but next week I will go to France to use the French I'd learned at evening school. So there may be at least one week of delay with my answers. 


Hmm.... FallenAngel, you're not quite getting it.... it's not a roleplay, per se. The idea isn't for someone to pretend to answer how Kirika would answer. The idea is like.... some people, either when they write a character for a story or when they get emotionally involved with a character from a book, etc., feel as if that character is somehow "with" them. It's hard to explain, but if you read any number of interviews by authors, or the NaNoWriMo forums, etc., anywhere where people are writing either amateur or professional, you'll see this phenomenon. So it's that character that's talking, not really someone pretending to be them.. it sounds a bit whacked, but it's not really that rare, particularly amongst writers where it's almost universal in some genres. 

Quote: 
I wish I had a Kirika. (sulks) 


The care and feeding of Kirikas is hard work, but rewarding. ^_^ 

Quote: 
Oh, I forgot to mention: My ex-boyfriend told me that he stumbled upon a Noir movie on the internet that was clearly done by fans, seeing as it was post series and Chloe was still alive. Yeah. Unfortunately, he never told me where it was and I am forbidden to contact him. (growls) 


Eek! Wow! But, suck at the not contacting part. ;_; Movie as in live action or animation? Me waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaant............. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:16 am    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
I agree, a new topic would be necessary to do this. It sounds really funny, and I can imagine to take the part of Kirika.  


That was not really the plan, but taking this to the role play forum is maybe not such a bad idea. Makes our complete lunacy slightly less obvious and such... 

Oops, simultaneous reply. 

Noir fan movie? This wouldn't be a cruel joke by the ex-boyfriend, I hope? Can't you ask him through a mutual friend? (imagines boy's mother threatening AthenAltena at swordspoint to keep her dark influence away from her son...) 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:12 am    Post subject:    

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::smuggles the lunacy away in a dark corner:: Hehe.... I shall leave topicing up to you. It sounds like a good idea. 
 
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 219
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:39 pm    Post subject:    

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Actually, his mother probably would do that. ^ ^
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"Watashi wa rurouni, gozaru yo." 
~Kenshin Himura 
 
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:26 pm    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
Hmm.... FallenAngel, you're not quite getting it.... it's not a roleplay, per se. The idea isn't for someone to pretend to answer how Kirika would answer. 

Maybe I've expressed it wrong. I didn't mean to pretend Kirika. So lets say it with your own wordsSprite Revenchatte wrote: 
The idea is like.... some people, either when they write a character for a story or when they get emotionally involved with a character from a book, etc., feel as if that character is somehow "with" them. 

I believe I'm not only "with her", I think our characters (her written and my real) match at least 95%.
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The one, who brought the light. 
To Earth. And to men. 
The first Angel, who felt remorse. 
The only Angel, who felt ever. 
 
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:03 pm    Post subject: Well, crapicus   

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Quote: 
- So, there's, like, two chicks with swords? Before the Scales? 'Kay, they serve Justice then. 
- But there are two sides to that scale: guilty and innocent, vengence and forgiveness. 
- Hence, hatred (alone) can never yadda yadda. 
 


*taps self on shoulder* 

Kev: Ah, there's no Scales in that logo, laddy. 
S8: Crapicus maximus! 

*sighs* 

So I saw the radiant circle of light behind the two figures and edited in a set of scales. 

And here's me speaking about unreliable memory. Whoops. 

I should have wrote "light of God" or something instead.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject:    

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Like a good, properly obsessed fan, I think sometimes about Kirika's upbringing. It fascinates me and makes me sad, wondering what her life must have been like. She was already an emotionless killing machine by the time she murdered Mireille's family. Remember the look in her eyes? 

I read somewhere that Kirika could have been hypnotized by the Soldats, so that she'd wake up with only selected information. Is this a popular view among Noir fans? I am not lucky enough to have met many fans... I just make them.  

(My Japanese friends in Japan have never even heard of this show...?!) 
 
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:48 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
She was already an emotionless killing machine by the time she murdered Mireille's family. Remember the look in her eyes? 


Uh, you mean the one before or after she starts crying? 

I wouldn't say "emotionless," more "uncomprehending." Seeing as she's, like, eight or younger, and has spent all her life immersed in killing theory, she probably isn't entirely aware of what the consequences of her actions will be. She doesn't yet have the emotional maturity; when she pulls the trigger, and the guy goes splat, she's stunned. She doesn't know how to react, and gets that whole "expressionless serial killer" look. After Odette gives her speech, it finally sinks in, and the waterworks start. 

I guess you could classify her facial expressions as follows. 
1. (during initial shooting phase) Extreme concentration. She has been instructed to do a specific task in a specific way, and has trained her whole life to do it. Mentally, she's like a gymnast before a performance; not thinking about the consequences of her actions, but only of the actions themselves. 
2. (during pause after the dad and kid eat it) Uncertainty, and confusion over what has actually occured. 
3. (after Odette speaks) Sweet mother of God, what have I done. 

Heck, I'm not even sure if you can call Chloe an emotionless killing machine at this time. I suspect that within that "Wai Wai! Yatta! Kirika wa sugoi yo!!!!" gasp of joy was a little bit of "Sweet jeebus, is that blood?" and "Eep. Loud noise."
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:05 am    Post subject:    

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She kills them, and then there are a few big close-ups of her eyes. They look dead to me. Unaffected, desensitized. She just blinks at one point. Even if she's not there yet, she's well on her way. Chloe referred to her as someone who killed without hesitation. 

In the first episode, Kirika sits at the construction site and wonders how she can kill so easily without feeling any sadness, even though she's crying. Her crying tells me that she's upset at what she can do, and at her own lack of emotional response. Later on in the series she says she can kill people, and this makes her sad. I believe this is Kirika waking up. 

The part of her that was deadened, silenced and controlled was freed somewhat, and resurfaced when she lost her memories. And from then on, I see an internal war going on. She's sad to kill at times, and then sometimes she reverts back to the robotic machine...and still at other times, she's centered, hates what she is, and wants to die. 
 
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:30 am    Post subject:    

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Point taken. And made absolutely, hilariously well in the context of your avatar.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:38 am    Post subject:    

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This thing is "interesting" (from http://www.geocities.com/lord_visionary/pt16.htm): 

I quote it because the site seems to be about to move. Note the stuff about "alter" personalities... 

When I was a trainer in the Illuminati, there was one command that every trainer learned first when working with their subjects (and assassin training was then mandatory for ALL children, I went through it and do not know of any children in the Illuminati who have not). The command? The "halt" command. This is the FIRST command put in, it freezes the child or teen or adult in place, and is ground in. 

Why do trainers learn this code first for the person they work with? Because of the real risk that the person may try to kill them, and the halt code bypasses this. This is a person who has been horrendously abused in atrocious ways from infancy on. This is a person taught since age five to shoot, first with air guns and BB shot, later real guns, and to practice using VR equipment. 

This is a person taught in early childhood to kill coldly and emotionlessly on command. This is a person who is told to shoot their brother or sister during a VR exercise, and they believe it is real under hypnotic trance, to test their "obedience". (They actually did this horrible thing to my son, and he cried as he told how anxious he was the next day, and almost died of shock to see his sister alive and well. That was the ONLY way he knew it had been a VR exercise and NOT real). 

This is a person with endless rage towards their tormentors and abusers after a lifetime of torture, abuse and rape, who is told to "use their anger" to make them a better marksmen. This is a person told that eliminating the ''enemy'' and the weak will bring them glory and help "family". Now, if that child or teen or adult is alone and tormented in the daytime, a great anger will build up. This person becomes difficult to control. 

At night, I knew trainers (who were sloppy or pushed too hard) who were killed by the person they were working on. It was considered one of the "risks of the job". I was always cautious. All trainers knew that at night a person might get out of control, it always happened some. The person was highly punished for it, locked up for days, tortured, to teach them that it wasn't okay. If the person became very unstable, they might be considered "expendable" and eliminated. Or sent to a state hospital, where no one would believe their "paranoid fantasies" of being taught to assassinate others. 

If the brutal and controlling trainers had trouble controlling people and at times were killed by them, then why wouldn't they occasionally lose control in the daytime? It happens, and is quietly covered up (guess how quickly the FBI yanks away incriminating web sites or occult paraphernalia or anything linking the person to an organized occult group?). 

People do not suddenly become killers. It is a learned process to overcome the natural horror of killing other human beings, a process begun in earliest childhood by the Illuminati. You have to FORCE a child to kill. 

Here is how it is done (how it was done to me): 
[1] When the child is 2 years old, place them in a metal cage with electrodes attached. Shock the child severely. 
[2] Take the child out, and place a kitten in its hands. Tell the child to wring the kitten's neck. The child will cry and refuse. 
[3] Put the child into the cage, and shock them until they are dazed and cannot scream any more. 
[4] Take the child out, and tell them again to wring the kitten's neck. This time the child will shake all over, cry, but do it, afraid of the torture. The child will then go into the corner and vomit afterwards, while the adult praises them for "doing such a good job". 

This is the first step. The animals get bigger over time, as the child gets older. They will be forced to kill an infant at some point, either a set up or VR, or in reality. They will be taught by age 9 to put together a gun, to aim, and fire on target and on command. They will then practice on realistic manikins. They will then practice on animals. They will then practice on "expendables" or in VR. They will be highly praised if they do well, and tortured if they don't comply. 

The older the child or teen, the more advanced the training. By age 15, most children will also be forced to do hand to hand combat in front of spectators (high people who come to watch the "games" much as the ancient gladiators performed). These matches are rarely done to the death, usually until one child goes down. They use every type of weapon imaginable, and learn to fight for their lives. If a child loses a fight, they are heavily punished by their trainer, who loses "face". If they win, they are again praised for being "strong' and adept with weapons. By the time they are 21, they are well trained combat/killing machines with command codes to kill and they have been tested over and over to prove that they WILL obey on command. This is how children in the German Illuminati are brought up, I went through it myself. 

Q: Svali, you said earlier that a 'halt' program is one of the first programs installed in children. What exactly does it consist of? Is it just a code word, or a more complicated process? 

Svali: Normally, the halt program is a code that freezes the child or adult in their tracks. It is a combination of numbers, such as "354" (not a real one, just similar as an example), or a German word and number combination. 

All children will try to hurt their trainers back, it ALWAYS happens, at a very young age. The part of them that tried to do the hurting (usually a protector) will be severely punished, with imprisonment and isolation, or being beaten, or shocked, or a combination to teach them not to do this. 

The halt command will then be put in under hypnosis, while drugged, after extreme trauma. The alter with the command is told to come out INSTANTEOUSLY on hearing it, and to freeze the body with no movement; the person is told that if they fail to do this, many more torture sessions will follow as punishment. It is reinforced frequently over time.  
 
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:13 pm    Post subject:    

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Sounds a little bit fantastic. I'm not sure what you want to imply by quoting this. Do you think Kirika got such kind of treatment? If she was treated that way, her light side had been completly disappeared. We never would have seen a Kirika like in "The lost Cat", "Season of Hell" or "The Darkness Inside Me". 

Hikari wrote: 
I read somewhere that Kirika could have been hypnotized by the Soldats, so that she'd wake up with only selected information. Is this a popular view among Noir fans? 

In this thread it is discussed controverse. I believe that Kirika got some kind of brainwash. I think it's interesting to see how many fans believe in something like that and how many consider other reasons. So I will start a poll.
_________________
The one, who brought the light. 
To Earth. And to men. 
The first Angel, who felt remorse. 
The only Angel, who felt ever. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:30 pm    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
Sounds a little bit fantastic. I'm not sure what you want to imply by quoting this. Do you think Kirika got such kind of treatment? 

I give the story as much credence as anything related to the German Illuminati,  but this seems to have been published somewhere, and there are some similarities to Noir; child assassins trained by secret occult organisations, killing practice on "expendables", dueling practice amongst children with any kind of weapon, hints of hypnotism, torture and brainwashing, multiple personanlities, child assassins turning on their supervisors... Maybe someone at BeeTrain read this stuff? 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:32 pm    Post subject:    

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Hmm, we're all psychiatrists here. lol... I love reading everyone's analyses. 

FacelessMinion!  I know Kirika's not a real person (excuse my blasphemy) but I hope her training was more bearable than that. I think the Soldats could do what they did without going to some of those extremes... 
 
FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:50 am    Post subject:    

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Hikari wrote: 
FacelessMinion!  I know Kirika's not a real person (excuse my blasphemy) but I hope her training was more bearable than that. I think the Soldats could do what they did without going to some of those extremes... 

I hope so too, but I fear the worst. If you have to organise such a training regimen, it makes sense to use the most effective methods, for maximum results with minimal effort. Which would mean the most brutal, cruel and degrading treatment you can fit in your time and budget. Similar things do happen to real children, for example child soldiers or in religious cults. 

There is probably a difference in that Kirika was not supposed to be a completely mindless killing machine, I think. 

Thinking about it does make me feel kind of sorry for all the goons-in-suits, imagine they were born and raised in Soldats this way, being so programmed and conditioned they wouldn't even have a choice when ordered to kill someone. It would explain why they all seems so dedicated. They don't care about being killed because they know Soldats can do far worse... 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:03 am    Post subject:    

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Hikari wrote: 
The part of her that was deadened, silenced and controlled was freed somewhat, and resurfaced when she lost her memories. And from then on, I see an internal war going on. She's sad to kill at times, and then sometimes she reverts back to the robotic machine...and still at other times, she's centered, hates what she is, and wants to die. 

Yet you think Soldats was responsible for Kirika's amnesia. Why would they deliberately cause something that would undo the results of her conditioning? I know Mireille said "the enemy that took your memories" at some point but there is no way she could have known what she was talking about, at best she was guessing... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:49 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
FacelessMinion! I know Kirika's not a real person (excuse my blasphemy) but I hope her training was more bearable than that. I think the Soldats could do what they did without going to some of those extremes... 


1) I am a real person 

I have feelings, emotions, I laugh and cry and i experience things different from anyone else like all people. I'm not a made up person and I didn't come from the anime, they wrote the anime about me. 

not blasphemy really since I'm not a religious figure  just makes me feel sad? 

2) as Faceless Minions says this happens to people in this world 

3) this IS a lot like how it happened or what I remember of it anyway, not all of it but a similar kind of thing.... if anyone is curious I have a community up on livejournal http://www.livejournal.com/community/formerassassins 

where I posted links to illuminati type sites 

Illuminati = Soldats in this world 

so if we are going to talk about this you better not think I'm not going to have an opinion... 


sorry for my bad typing but I got really mad just now!  ;;; but sorry about that..... but people have to know that this is the truth. 

I'm not just a fictional character, please read this site http://www.intoccabile.net/soulbond and you can see how people that are called fictional characters come to exist in this world... another good link is here, sorry it's Google cache but the original site moved and I don't know where... http://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache:6PX2lRxWFtwJ:www.tanuki.cx/pavilion/glossary.html+functional+soulbond&hl=en Scroll down to "soulbond".. 

You have to believe me... well, you don't have to but if you are going to discuss me and so interested in my past I hope you would take my words for it..... if you are going to talk about a person I respect your interest in me but if that person comes along... I only hope you can believe me. 

Kirika 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:26 am    Post subject:    

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Since I somewhat brought up ritual child abuse here, it seems only fair to mention False Memory Syndrome: 
http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/resource/reports.shtml 
Though I'm not sure which I find scarier; that there would be widespread organised ritual child abuse going on, or that "therapists" can make people "remember" whatever stuff that never happened to them... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:16 am    Post subject:    

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I wanted to say I'm sorry for shouting, I just got mad at things. I didn't mean to shout at anyone, I just wanted to be heard and sometimes these things upset me. 

Kirika 
 
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:43 pm    Post subject:    

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Kirika: I'm disconcerted about the things I've to read here about me, even from my other appearance. FacelessMinions first link shows how to create killing robots. With that kind of "training" you can't create someone like me. I was trained to get Noir. It's true, a Noir has to kill people, and it's better if she's not affected to much from doing this, otherwise she would go probably insane. Consider the purpose of Noir. They should fight the evil. But you can't fight the evil by simply fullfilling orders, without questioning. You have to ask yourself: Is the target evil? If not, there is another question: If the target isn't evil, maybe the one who gave the order to kill?. And so you have possibly to change the target. If "trained" the shown way, you're not able to make this decisions. I think, it is part of the Noir trials to find out which saplings make their own decisions and which simply fullfill orders. Another thing is, trained under tortures and drugs, you may reach a level higher than an average assassin, but you never will reach the skills I have. Get me right, I feel sad about that I have this skills, I've shown that only as a fact. 

Now another thing: I've replied here only because I've read the post of Kirika@Sprite. I propose, all Kirikas, Chloes and so on shoud only question and answer in their Q&A threads, otherwise the rules not to read the others answers and no arguing between them make no sense.
_________________
The one, who brought the light. 
To Earth. And to men. 
The first Angel, who felt remorse. 
The only Angel, who felt ever. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:37 pm    Post subject:    

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To all Kirikas: 

I think there can be multiple Noir-worlds where events happened in slightly or not-so-slightly different ways. Obviously both Kirikas we have here have different experiences, and so it stands to reason they come from alternate worlds. Other posters here, even without SB, may have strong mental connections to yet other versions of the Noir world. 
Considering this, I have to side with Kirika@FallenAngel. While I understand the desire for a SB Kirika to speak out when something is said that does not match her experiences, I don't think it's right to call an interpretation "wrong" unless it was explicitely about the world this SB Kirika is coming from, which discussions should preferably be limited to our dedicated SB threads. It would be impolite to expect every forum member to accept soulbonding, I think. So let's make some tea and calm down ^^;; 

Kirika@FallenAngel, I never said Kirika's training was exactly like this Illuminati method, because as you say the goal of that is to create mindless robots. I do think there are some interesting parallels, particularly the deliberate creation of "alter" personalities. I also think it possibly describes accurately the training of the average Soldats killer-in-suit. I said that IF torture is used as a brainwashing method, it would not make sense to minimize the cruelty. 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:54 pm    Post subject:    

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Trust me, I know what can happen in real life. Even so, this is the first time I have ever heard of soulbonds. That was not a part of my thinking. 

I agree with FallenAngel about what would have happened to Kirika's light side. I also see the Soldats being a tad trickier in their methods, for the most part. 

FacelessMinion wrote: 
Yet you think Soldats was responsible for Kirika's amnesia. Why would they deliberately cause something that would undo the results of her conditioning? 


Not sure. I think there could be lots of reasons. I think it was all a part of the trials. The teaming up with M, and the water, light and final guidance. It all just seems too well planned. 

edited for clarification

Last edited by Hikari on Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:58 am; edited 4 times in total 
 
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Deathbringer
Soldat


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 56
Location: 667 - neighbor of the beast
 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:42 pm    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
To all Kirikas: 

I think there can be multiple Noir-worlds where events happened in slightly or not-so-slightly different ways. Obviously both Kirikas we have here have different experiences, and so it stands to reason they come from alternate worlds. Other posters here, even without SB, may have strong mental connections to yet other versions of the Noir world. 
 



Yeah ...you`re right in any way .... but one perspektive we all had together : Kirika isn`t a normal girl like the schoolgirls think ... she is a silent assasin ... Or do you think an other way ?
_________________
"Love certainly can kill people, however, don't forget, hatred can never save people, NEVER!!" 

-- Odette Bouquet 
 
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:17 am    Post subject:    

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FacelessMinion wrote: 
Kirika@FallenAngel, I never said Kirika's training was exactly like this Illuminati method, because as you say the goal of that is to create mindless robots. 

Kirika: Sorry, I didn't want imply this. You've posted it before that you not think so, and I've noticed it. I only refered to that link, and that it not happened to me was opposition to Kirika@Sprite. Sorry again for leaving it unclear. So this will be the last time I post outside SB topics. 

FacelessMinion wrote: 
I also think it possibly describes accurately the training of the average Soldats killer-in-suit. 

FallenAngel: The method shown in the Illuminati link is a real cruel form of that what we Germans call "sugar bread and lash". I don't think it is necessary as part of the training of average Soldats killers, comparing to Germanys past about 60 years ago. All the members of SS and Wehrmacht, who did the war crimes and crimes against humanity, weren't treated that way. They did it because they'd rationalized it somehow, mostly with that thinking of the superiority of the "Arian race" and that the other are worthless. I think it's same for Soldats: They believe they are better than the rest. The Soldat at episode "Les Soldats" tells Mireille that Soldats are perfect creatures.
_________________
The one, who brought the light. 
To Earth. And to men. 
The first Angel, who felt remorse. 
The only Angel, who felt ever. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:17 am    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
Now another thing: I've replied here only because I've read the post of Kirika@Sprite. I propose, all Kirikas, Chloes and so on shoud only question and answer in their Q&A threads, otherwise the rules not to read the others answers and no arguing between them make no sense. 


I don't believe I can do that because I'm a person on this board who I think I have as much rights to post and read as anyone else. I'm not a "Kirika" as if that was a different clas sof person I'm just a human being. I know for most of you that's something unusual and I don't expect everyone to understand or accept it... I just want to be seen as a person like everybody else. The reason I even agreed to be a part of the fandom and to talk to other people in the fandom because I wanted to give people a chance to know what it was I experienced. I know that's maybe not like what you experienced and maybe I went a bad way about it. I'm sorry  But, if you can understand it, it's like reading celebrities tabloid stories about your life sometimes. If they don't get the details of what is right for you, you want to correct it. It's a natural reaction and I'm just a human person not a machine who can pretend that people don't talk about me. I don't mind anyone here to talk about me  and again I'm sorry I got mad, I wasn't meaning to get mad at you, but I get upset at my past. Can you understand and forgive me for being like that? 

Quote: 
Trust me, I know what can happen in real life. Even so, this is the first time I have ever heard of soulbonds. That was not a part of my thinking. 


It's okay, I didn't mean to yell at you about it, I hope to have no hard feelings?  

Quote: 
I think there can be multiple Noir-worlds where events happened in slightly or not-so-slightly different ways. Obviously both Kirikas we have here have different experiences, and so it stands to reason they come from alternate worlds. Other posters here, even without SB, may have strong mental connections to yet other versions of the Noir world. 


First of all I want to say I'm not questioning anyone else's reality, I'm just saying what my reality was. I'm trying to say that at least one universe it happened that way. I do believe in alternate universe but still understand that it's hard to face an alternate universe version of yourself, most of you don't ever have to think about coming face to face with someone who is "you" but not and has different experiences and feelings on "your" past, so you can understand that's a hard thing for anyone to deal with. If you think about how you would act in that situation you know why it's easy to get upset, even if that's not rational or polite. So if I shout about it, I'm sorry..... 

I want to just ask people to think, if they went on a forum and saw a topic that says "what happened in FacelessMinion's past?" or "what happened in AthenAltena's past?" or any of you, and people were all sitting around debating it and nobody knew for sure, you would want to say "I'm that person and I know what happened" wouldn't you? And even if an alternate version of you came in and said it was different you wouls till want to defend what you believe wouldn't you? I'm not saying I did the right thing. I know what the right thing is but I don't always do it, I know. I probably didn't do the right thing but please understand why I jumped at the topic. Please don't think I'm a cruel person who only wants to shout at you or someone who believes what they experienced is the only thing to exist. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:26 am    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
Now another thing: I've replied here only because I've read the post of Kirika@Sprite. I propose, all Kirikas, Chloes and so on shoud only question and answer in their Q&A threads, otherwise the rules not to read the others answers and no arguing between them make no sense. 

It was a guideline, I don't make the rules on this forum. If you Kirikas want to have a nasty public fight with each other in the middle of an interesting topic then go right ahead, don't let me stop you. I'll just go make fanworks about a Mireille-Altena pairing, since they were obviously made for each other...  
 
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FallenAngel
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:07 pm    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revanchette wrote: 
...Can you understand and forgive me for being like that? 

Kirika: No need to forgive you since you have done nothing wrong. I hope I can explain why I don't want that talking outside the SB threads. It must have to do with our different experiences. Seems to me like I'm little bit more self confident, because I don't care much about what other people think about me, say about me, except that people are important for me. So I have no problems to read posts which obviously say wrong things about me. If it's really necessary to react so it can be done in my opinion also inside our own thread, even if no one had asked there. As for example, for the training we have told our memories already. 

The discussion outside I prefer to see without our influence. Maybe you have recovered better from the memory loss than me. If the fans are discussing about what happened in the past it can help to get back some memories. Even if some say things that you or me never had experienced, maybe some replies can bring the truth. So I want to let it without our influence. Another reason is, to read about your childhood/youth, which obviously has been worse than mine, is affecting me. And I fear, since you are telling facts from your world, while the other have only assumptions, it could interfere my recovery from the memory loss. The guidelines in the SB threads prevent from reading your answers and questions which are related to you. But ouside it is also difficult for me to ignore your answers, especially since it is not clear if you or Sprite is answering until I have read the post. 
FacelessMinion wrote: 
If you Kirikas want to have a nasty public fight with each other in the middle of an interesting topic then go right ahead, don't let me stop you. 

I don't think any of us want to do so. If you remind our answers, we both have already excused if we felt that we possibly had hurt someone. Why should we try to hurt each other?
_________________
The one, who brought the light. 
To Earth. And to men. 
The first Angel, who felt remorse. 
The only Angel, who felt ever. 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:28 pm    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
It's okay, I didn't mean to yell at you about it, I hope to have no hard feelings?  


None whatsoever. I hope you can forgive me for not sharing your beliefs. 

I should have lurked more before I joined this place.  
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:56 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
I want to just ask people to think, if they went on a forum and saw a topic that says "what happened in FacelessMinion's past?" or "what happened in AthenAltena's past?" or any of you, and people were all sitting around debating it and nobody knew for sure, you would want to say "I'm that person and I know what happened" wouldn't you?  

An interesting question. I'm not sure if I would want to get involved, I mean it would spoil all the fun, and the things other people could come up with are probably more interesting than my own view. I mean I already know my version of my past, but I don't know what others think of it. On the other hand I have no great desire to share my own view with others. As to knowing what happened, that is rather subjective. There is a lot I don't remember, and a lot I remember differently from other people who were there (for example my brother claims he never tried to kill me when I was little  ). I've heard stories told about me with no basis in fact, and I'm sure there are more I never heard. I've heard myself misquoted minutes after the fact. I also spent two years with people who kept calling me by another person's name to the point where I gave up trying to correct them, so who knows what they would tell when asked about my past (I sometimes wonder who I really was at the time). I think I just don't feel much connection to all that "me that exists in the minds of others" stuff. 
 
Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 4:46 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
Another reason is, to read about your childhood/youth, which obviously has been worse than mine, is affecting me. And I fear, since you are telling facts from your world, while the other have only assumptions, it could interfere my recovery from the memory loss. The guidelines in the SB threads prevent from reading your answers and questions which are related to you. But ouside it is also difficult for me to ignore your answers, especially since it is not clear if you or Sprite is answering until I have read the post. 


Okay, I don't want to interfere with that. 

Quote: 
None whatsoever. I hope you can forgive me for not sharing your beliefs. 


It's not a crime.  For the record I'm not sure what your thoughts are about it at the moment, as to what you do believe. I know some people think it's Sprite who believes that she's Kirika, but it's not, we're separate people (so even if I say things to offend people please don't get mad at her). You can tell because I can't write good English as much.  So even if you don't believe me at all I just want to say don't get mad at her for things I post. 

Quote: 
I should have lurked more before I joined this place. 


It's okay, yyou weren't to expect that. I feel bad because as well as anything you're newly here so I hope I didn't scare you. 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:05 pm    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
I feel bad because as well as anything you're newly here so I hope I didn't scare you. 


No, not skipping over a few posts in this thread would have saved me some confusion, but I understand what the beliefs are, and have since gotten over the shock.  

I am an unbeliever, but sometimes I feel my own kind of connection to Kirika, because I can relate to her confusion and search for her past, etc. She fascinates me because she's such a skilled and strong character, and I admire her. 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:25 pm    Post subject:    

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Then, if Kirika was trained her whole life by these Soldats jerks, can that explain why she accepts jobs with Mireille right from the beginning? Yes, she teams up with Mireille, because she's alone, because they are searching for the truth, and because they will be attacked again, but... 

Look at her face in episode 2 when Mireille reads the information about their first job. Mireille is fine, even smiling, while Kirika stands there looking depressed. Then when she shoots her last target, Mireille comments on how vulgar she is, and Kirika looks sad and disturbed. She cries at the end. 

She's bothered by her lack of remorse for a while, but seems to stop thinking about it, and just keeps working. 

Mireille's motivations and choices are simple for me to understand, and Kirika makes sense later. Just not at the beginning, not to me. 

I know Kirika sins, and there are no innocents in this story. I just always saw her as a product of her environment for the most part. Can I still do this, or does she have to take a step or two down from the tiny pedestal I have her on? 

Can I blame the evil Soldats, since we know Kirika was raised to believe she is Noir, and in the beginning is like a child in a fog in some ways, not yet free of her past? 
 
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:54 pm    Post subject:    

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Hmmm... 

Kirika does accept the job, yes. Mireille doesn't seem to really pressure her into it either, giving her several chances to back out. 

Hazard a guess, she might have went along with the job for any or all of the following reasons: 

1. What else would she do? Killing is one of the only things she actually knows how to do, and it looks like Mireille's apartment would get really boring pretty fast. 

2. The search for identity. Since it's all she knows, and she would like to know more about herself, she might want to explore the subject a bit more with the vague hope that it might lead somewhere. (That, and, subconsciously, she knows that it will.) She might also hope that eventually she will come to understand her lack of remorse (and she actually does, starting in around that incident with the cat). 

3. She wants to help. She's mature in some ways, but in others, still a child. She's essentially mooching off Mireille; maybe she wants to earn her keep (despite the emotional costs)? 

4. Love and friendship. Mireille is her only friend in the world, and every day she goes out and gets shot at. Kirika knows she's got skills, and might want to use them to protect her (again, possibly some subconscious Lady Odette action here). 

5. An attempt to earn (4). No better way to earn someone's trust than to put your life on the line and all. 

6. The 'amazingly depressed' theory. When one is depressed, one often continues to do things even if it makes you more depressed. Sometimes one feels there's no alternative, other times that one deserves the depression. I think this might have to do a lot with her decision to cap the old feller (although that may have also been a mercy killing of sorts, since she puts the picture back (exposed and no longer hidden)). 

In regards to the whole pedestal thing, yeah, might want to knock her down a few notches. She slowly discovers her dark side (and Mireille her not-so dark one) and embraces it in the end, etc. Although she was trained by the Soldats, she did willingly buy into the lie that she was an ordinary schoolgirl. If you want to call her for not being honest with herself, go ahead.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:11 am    Post subject:    

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Well, she's on a very tiny pedestal. I know she's no angel, but I can deal with her having a dark side that shows up later, because like Mireille said, the darkness was planted in her heart, and the events surrounding its appearances explain a lot to me. I have watched the final episodes more than these earlier ones, and I think the beginning is more confusing than the end. 

The problem is, Kirika is free (in a sense) for maybe the first time in her life, when she wakes up with amnesia. She recognizes something is wrong with her, and is bothered sometimes by what she does, but more or less chooses to continue. Kind of makes no sense, but there must be a reason. 

I was thinking more along the lines of your second idea, Section 8, and my mother was blaming Kirika's brainwashing, but now we have some more things to consider. Thanks! 

I have to at least understand what may have been going through Kirika's mind. This is my new mission, and I shall be victorious. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:53 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite, as opposed to Kirika: I would also go along with the second theory, and Kirika for her part says that that's what it was, along with the fact that a) she'd been trained to kill for so long that she couldn't feel anything about it and had more or less been forced to eliminate it from her sense of right and wrong, and b) it almost came like an instinct to her due to extensive training. When you've already killed three people and felt nothing (in the forest), you don't know who you are, the only thing you can do is kill, and the only person who can help you find your past is doing it too, it would have been an impossible truimph of Kirika's beaten-down light side over her ingrained darkness to go, "Screw y'all AND this popsicle stand" to Mireille. 

She could have gone running down the stret naked screaming about how she was free and then run off to start a home for abandoned Russian cats, but her programming was probably too strong - she probably had an internal "I am Noir, must find hot Corscian blonde called Mireille Bouquet and tell her about this Noir shiznit" monologue running permanently through her head. 

Quote: 
She slowly discovers her dark side (and Mireille her not-so dark one) and embraces it in the end, etc. 


I don't think she embraces it. I think, quite to the contrary, she overcomes it when she's faced with dead!Chloe and finally realises why this isn't the path she wants to walk. She internalises her sins at the end, but that's not embracing her dark side, that's just saying that she doesn't want to blame anyone for what she did other than herself and that she accepts she's guilty. Hence she tries to drown herself in the lava pit, overburdened by sin - until Mireille offers her something more hopeful than oblivion, a chance to live with her sins and still be accepted by the only person who could possibly understand them. 
 
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FacelessMinion
Intoccabile


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 612
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:57 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
it would have been an impossible truimph of Kirika's beaten-down light side over her ingrained darkness to go, "Screw y'all AND this popsicle stand" to Mireille. 

She could have gone running down the street naked screaming about how she was free and then run off to start a home for abandoned Russian cats,  

The fanart possibilities of those lines are priceless  

Personally I was more surprised that Mireille wanted Kirika along on the jobs. Particularly for the Russian job, bringing Kirika along seems just like a total waste of airfare, Mireille could have done this alone and "les doigts dans le nez". But as you said, it would have been very unlikely for Kirika to say no to Mireille at that point in their relationship. 
 
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:15 pm    Post subject:    

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We don't see it until later, but I imagine that when Mireille mentioned she was jetting off to Russia, Kirika probably insisted on going with her. It would, after all, get a bit lonely in that apartment. (No, wait, the plants, right.) 

Me, I wanna know why Mireille was surfing the 'Net that whole episode when she knew exactly where her target was.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Hikari
Pezzant


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Florida, USA
 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:54 am    Post subject:    

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Sprite, I was thinking a lot of those same things. Not much else makes sense, as far as explanations go. 

I also agree that Kirika never embraced her dark side. She wanted to discover something good and normal, and instead, she gets dark whispers from Chloe that confirm her worst fears and send her mind into turmoil and confusion. I think her dark side showed up in the next episode because she ran out of hope. 

By the time she gets tucked in at the manor, she's learned much more about where she came from, which no doubt confused and upset her even more. The scene where her gun is returned to her - she's all ready to shoot, when this smiling mother figure begins playing with her vulnerable mind, telling her that they live in the darkness together, and that she will never find peace anywhere else. 

So, it happens: Kirika starts to crack, and crumbles to the ground, defeated by the brainwashing/manipulation, etc. She does snap out of it later, but not before she has an understandable case of tunnel vision. 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 95
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:28 am    Post subject:    

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Section_8 wrote: 
Me, I wanna know why Mireille was surfing the 'Net that whole episode when she knew exactly where her target was. 


Because she's looking for information all the time. At first she wanted to know something about her target, then she surfed the net to find out something about the place on the picture Kirika took away from the old man's house. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Soldat Official


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:30 am    Post subject:    

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Kamui wrote: 
Because she's looking for information all the time. At first she wanted to know something about her target, then she surfed the net to find out something about the place on the picture Kirika took away from the old man's house. 


Nah. She's just looking for porn. 

 

As for bringing Kirika along, Faceless, it's cold in Russia. Mireille needs to keep warm, hypothermia kills. (Though the fact that they have separate beds in Russia derails my happy train of thought.) 

Hikari, I think you absolutely have it down right. My point exactly. 
 
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Nightwish
Pezzant


Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Finrando
 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:37 am    Post subject:    

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Now when you mention that... What do you think would there be an Internet connection in hotel? Mireille doesn't seem use her mobile phone to connect to Internet. 
I mean I have very stereotypical image about Russian hotels, even distance is little more than 100 kilometres to Russia's border from the place where I live. 
But I've never visited on Russia.. And year in series is 2009. So maybe it is possible... 
 
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Kamui
Forum Minion


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 95
Location: Vienna, Austria
 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:10 am    Post subject:    

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Mireille has got a Laptop, so she can connect to the net from everywhere, as long as there's a phone - so I think it would be possible. 


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Nightwish
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 71
Location: Finrando
 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:48 am    Post subject: A problem with yuri scenes....   

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Do you know how write good yuri scenes? 
I mean, I'm RPGer and I need to make nice and soft yuri to one person's dream.. I don't have to game it, but write it alone. 
But I can't. I have wall in my mind that prevents too well all those soft words and other necessary things coming from my mind to paper or a computer screen. 
How I can get over all that shyness? I've actually watched some porn and I tried to use it as getting over a shyness. I just sighed and said: "I can write more emotionally than what those do on tv.." 
It didn't helped. At all. >_< 
I've never been with anyone, so I can't use any personal experiences as help. 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 256
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: A problem with yuri scenes....   

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You could try reading lots of yuri. Not just fanfic, but lesbian stories. Also, try looking up advice sites on female-oriented pleasure.... If you're female yourself, then use what you know about you. 

I know yuri can be nerveracking - it is for me, too. The only way to do it is to face the fear and do it anyway.
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Nightwish
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 71
Location: Finrando
 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:26 am    Post subject:    

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::takes a little post-it note and writes something to it:: 
Thanks. And yes, I'm female with very dirty mind. Maybe I should snap those stupid thoughts necks and simply write? 
 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 256
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:53 am    Post subject:    

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Exactly. In most cases, you won't get it done until you just go, "NO, shut UP stupid thoughts" and bite the bullet. 

Being female makes it so much easier - think of what feels good for you. If you don't know what feels good for you, you need to spend a night indoors.  

Try getting existing yuri stories and fanfics, copying-and-pasting phrases and words and putting them together in different orders, to create a new story - obviously you can't use this in a real fanfic, it's plagiarism, but use it for practice to build your courage up with using those words and phrases.
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Shigan
Pezzant


Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 24
Location: North, very much so.
 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:46 pm    Post subject:    

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Um...also, I'm not sure if watching porn is a great way to go at the beginning ^^; It's important, true, but as in any story and not only yuri, you do need to capture the atmosphere before "getting it on". PWP do have a certain boredom to it when you have read/watched a couple of scenarios (backseat/sofa/pool/laserprinter, pick your fav),.
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"Art is Freedom, so is Nudism." - ME 
 
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Bulmafox
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 73
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:33 pm    Post subject:     

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Shigan wrote: 
Um...also, I'm not sure if watching porn is a great way to go at the beginning ^^; It's important, true, but as in any story and not only yuri, you do need to capture the atmosphere before "getting it on". PWP do have a certain boredom to it when you have read/watched a couple of scenarios (backseat/sofa/pool/laserprinter, pick your fav),. 


 Laser printer?! 

And I thought my idea with M&K on the pool table was off-the-wall.
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Shigan
Pezzant


Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 24
Location: North, very much so.
 Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:22 pm    Post subject:    

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Um, I meant porn in general, not K&M since Mireille's printer dont seem to be very sizy. 

Why is the pool-table off-the-walls? I mean, it's...so there. 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 828
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:35 pm    Post subject:    

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Shigan wrote: 
Why is the pool-table off-the-walls? I mean, it's...so there.  

But replacing the felt is so expensive. 
 
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Section_8
Kind Mother


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 276
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:08 pm    Post subject:    

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*twitches* 

Gah! "Corner pocket" jokes! (Gods, I never thought I'd be this dirty!)
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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Shigan
Pezzant


Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 24
Location: North, very much so.
 Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:08 pm    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
But replacing the felt is so expensive. 


They could just buy another one, for the other stuff... O_o 

Come to think of it, I'm surprised there hasn't been a yuri story based on that yet, I mean, how many anime maincharacters have a pooltable laying around for multiple usage?
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Bulmafox
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 73
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:06 pm    Post subject:     

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The pool table just seems so...unusual. I mean nobody makes love on a pool table. The always do it on the bed, in the shower, in the pool, on that Blue Lagoon island...... 

And I do plan on writing a yuri chapter with Kirika and Mireille making love on the pool table, set to Kirei na Knajou, no less. 

And can you explain that reference, Section 8? My poor little virgin brain isn't getting it.
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Section_8
Kind Mother


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 276
Location: Canada?
 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:23 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
And can you explain that reference, Section 8? My poor little virgin brain isn't getting it. 


No. Absolutely not. Frankly, I'm surprised my poor little virgin brain came up with it myself. Damn 3 a.m. 

If you must know, watch the South Park movie for a rough approximation. 

Oh, and bear in mind that all objects are sexual in nature. As I understand it, if it exists, it's been fetishsized by someone. If it doesn't, it will be. (ecsue typing problem, frikkin fire alamr at FIVE IN TEH MORNIGN!!) Except possibly an encyclopedia set, and that's only if Yomiko Readman is far, far away. 

Quote: 
Come to think of it, I'm surprised there hasn't been a yuri story based on that yet, I mean, how many anime maincharacters have a pooltable laying around for multiple usage? 


Don't recall many offhand. The Bebop crew? The Discworld's Archchancellor Ridcully uses his billiard table much like Mireille does.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often. 

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes? 

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad? 
 
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FacelessMinion
Knight of Paris


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 828
Location: don't ask me I only work here
 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:54 am    Post subject:    

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Bulmafox wrote: 
The pool table just seems so...unusual. I mean nobody makes love on a pool table. 

That's probably because a cold hard flat surface isn't particularly enjoyable. Plus you could hurt yourself falling off in the excitement... 
 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 256
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:03 am    Post subject:    

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There's a Noir doujinshi where Chloe and Kirika make out on the pool table, but Chloe is also... masculinely equipped in that doujin, so whether it's yuri or not is for you to decide.
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FallenAngel
Kind Mother


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 286
Location: Germany
 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:32 am    Post subject:    

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I don't think a pool table is that unusual. It's too often shown on screen. And not to forget, where is a pool table there are always some toys. Like the cue or the balls 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 256
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:22 pm    Post subject:    

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....and what would you do with either of those?  Can we say "ouch, you broke my spleen"? ^_^;;;;;;
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FallenAngel
Kind Mother


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 286
Location: Germany
 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:54 pm    Post subject:    

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Originally I wanted to leave it to everyones own fantasy. But since you ask, in continuation of Bulmafox "Teaching Kirika Yuumura" the cue could take part as pointer in a teacher/student roleplay. And the balls are always good for for a massage.  Maybe there are also other ways of use - so many people, so many minds.
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 243
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:20 pm    Post subject:    

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*Finds this entire topic amusing and is laughing hysterically* 

Well... who says that virgin brains can't think of dirty stuff? Although the pool cue matter... Never mind. 
<_< 
>_>
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In darkness she is all I see 
So come and rest your bones with me 
Driving home on Sunday morning, 
And I never want to leave 
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 256
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:23 am    Post subject:    

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FallenAngel wrote: 
Originally I wanted to leave it to everyones own fantasy. But since you ask, in continuation of Bulmafox "Teaching Kirika Yuumura" the cue could take part as pointer in a teacher/student roleplay. And the balls are always good for for a massage.  Maybe there are also other ways of use - so many people, so many minds. 


Ah.... now you see, that makes more sense. That would be good. Cue as pointer, balls as massagers.... You should write it!
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Shigan
Pezzant


Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 24
Location: North, very much so.
 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:57 am    Post subject:    

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And don't forget the sexy traingle! Just imagine what you could do with something that shape! 

Why is a pooltable unusual? To be honest when I think of it, I would love to do it on one if yeah, you wouldn't have to change the felt after XD (*takes notes for future must-try-stuff*). But then, my immediate surroundings don't have any pooltables that don't have a lot of other people around...-_- 

OI! Yuri-fanfic writers! *HINT-NUDGE-HINT* 
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FallenAngel
Kind Mother


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 286
Location: Germany
 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:54 pm    Post subject:    

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
Cue as pointer, balls as massagers.... You should write it! 


::coughs::::coughs:: The pool table scene is Bulmafox idea, I don't want to steal it. And even if she says "Nervermind", it would be hard to do. In the moment it's a more general idea, not much detailed. And because it's always difficult to me to write my thoughts down in German, how much harder would it be in English? In the moment I use most of my sparetime for a project which will have follow ups if it is succesfull. And there is still an unwritten fanfic in my mind since I finished watching Noir for the first time. 

::desperatly seeking for more convincing reasons not to write this fanfic:: 

'cause I have the impression that you really want to read it, maybe if I stuck with my project and need some distraction I can give my heart a toss and write it down. But I can't promise that.
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AthenAltena
Kind Mother


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 243
Location: New England USA
 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:21 pm    Post subject:    

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Who says you need a reason?  I might take on this little project myself, after finals that is. *Miroku grin*
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That may be all I need 
In darkness she is all I see 
So come and rest your bones with me 
Driving home on Sunday morning, 
And I never want to leave 
~Maroon5 
 
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Shigan
Pezzant


Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 24
Location: North, very much so.
 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:46 am    Post subject:    

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You do not need a reason-you do not need a reason-you do not need a reason-you do no... 

   

*bounces*
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Bulmafox
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 85
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:20 pm    Post subject:     

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Okay, back on topic: Nightwish's question; how to get over that all-consuming shyness when writing yuri. 

Here's what Ms. Fox did while writing Yuumura: 

-thought about the story endlessly at work 
-read "Black Turned Red" by Kirika and other Noir yuri to make sure she wasn't too off-base and get into that "alternate" personality, the one that doesn't go "OMGOMGOMG I can't believe I'm doing this!" 
-had more than one window open to procrastinate at will; this included replacing "ri" with "umura" in an Intro to Linux document for fun--since Yuumura was essentially code for yuri because it was the only yuri story she's ever written--and coming up with a cool new word: pumurant (from print) 
-and eventually decided to just write it, especially when it got fun 
-posted on several forums for feedback 
-took Section 8's advice, which made a certain part of the story much more fun
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:20 am    Post subject:    

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Quote: 
-had more than one window open to procrastinate at will; this included replacing "ri" with "umura" in an Intro to Linux document for fun 


Can I ask what the word "yuri" was doing in an Intro to Linux document in the first place? 
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Bulmafox
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 85
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject:     

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Sprite Revenchatte wrote: 
Quote: 
-had more than one window open to procrastinate at will; this included replacing "ri" with "umura" in an Intro to Linux document for fun 


Can I ask what the word "yuri" was doing in an Intro to Linux document in the first place?  


The word "yuri" wasn't in there; it was the phenome (?) "-ri". Yuumura and yuri start with the same two letters, and since Yuumura became my code wird for yuri I decided to see what I'd get if I replaced "-umura" with "-ri", leaving out the "Yu-" because it was present in both words. Thus, I got fun words like pumuranting and copyumuraght.
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:24 am    Post subject:    

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Ah, okay. See, I thought you were trying to replace the word yuri with Yuumura in the document. My bad. :3
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Bulmafox
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 85
Location: Georgia...yay the Deep South -_-
 Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:32 pm    Post subject:      

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Another great way to overcome that shyness is to watch Noir with someone who completely denies Mireille/Kirika or Kirika/Chloe's bond. I marathoned Noir at a friend's house about a week ago and her father kept making stupid comments, for example in episode 23 when A Farewell Song played he and Crystal's brother Dooner asked why they couldn't play something like ZZ Top. They said absolutely nothing about neither Kirika's letter or Chloe's kiss, though to be fair they were calling out names of CDs they had when the kiss happened, and they probably would've had anuerysms had they seen it. And her father kept thinking of the best time for Mireille to kill Kirika and wrote off both Mireille refusing to kill Kirika in episode 21 and her begging Kirika to live in episode 26 as survival strategy; apparently Mireille only saved Kirika becasue she needs her help to kill off the Soldats. 

I was mentally all up in a fuss and when I got home I wanted to read some nice MiriKiri yuri, or even better, write it, so I skipped directly to Alterna-Noir chapter 7 (A Bouquet of Flowers for Kirika; the pool table chapter) and started writing. Only I stopped in the middle and haven't been able to pick it back up like I wanted. 

And I thought about the ZZ Top thing at work and got a funny mental image: Mireille looking out the window, moping about Kirika, with "Gimme all your lovin'/ All your hugs and kisses too" playing in the background.
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'? 
 
