﻿noirci
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:23 pm    Post subject: My 2 francs... 	Reply with quote
I am sure that many reviews and opinions of Noir have been written in the 3 years since its release. But since I can’t look back at 3 years’ worth of reviews, I’ll write a spoiler-filled review of my thoughts on the finer points of the series anyway, and a bit of general response to some opinions I have read. Even though some of what I said has probably already been spoken, oh well.

I’m quite the latecomer, of course. I only finished watching Noir but weeks ago. I loved it. I’m generally not much of an anime fan, but I loved this one. Came across it by accident only because my brother was watching it. After all, what a wonderful relationship story this has become. There was the entire charade with the Soldats, but it all seems insignificant compared with all the character development we get to see.

As for the romance subtext between Mireille and Kirika, I’m with the camp that believes it is definitely real as far as the creators are concerned. Specifically, I believe the romance was brewing very slowly underneath their emotionless outward expressions since about the middle of the series. Then the characters realized it themselves since the last 4 episodes, although due to the circumstances they couldn’t actually vocalize it to each other. The clues for romance are definitely there, one just has to decide for themselves whether they choose to see it. This is a series where you have to see into the layers past what is actually showing, and the romance aspect is probably the most suggestive. Although it is hidden, there always seems to be a bunch of invisible arrows behind the screen pointing towards it. The much-praised music has much to do with it, evoking ideas of true love, love of my life, lost love, (hmm, I see a pattern) that is deep within the characters’ hearts and it’s highly doubtful that all the lyrics and the timing of when the music plays are only coincidence. I can only imagine how much more indicative the music is for the Japanese viewer, as so many of the songs are in their native language as they’re watching it, unlike myself who has to look it up afterwards.

What M&K have is not your run-in-the-mill coupling of convenience either. This incredible relationship, romantic or not, blossoms from some of the most difficult situations possible. It thrives in spite of what they know of themselves, in spite of their basic unsentimental personalities, in spite of death, hate, pre-destiny, and acts of the unforgivable. It thrives not because of pre-programmed or physical attraction, but from sacrifice, from personal growth, from seeing what is true and what is false.

I don’t believe M&K are really true “lesbians”, specifically. They are 2 individuals who, under very extraordinary circumstances, have found a connection and a very deep and meaningful bond with each other. Being of the same gender is probably only an issue to the extent that they and the viewers probably won’t automatically predict a relationship between them as an obvious extension of their struggles as the story progresses. Imagine if the story was of a man and a woman. Right away after 10 minutes of the show, I would be saying without hesitation, “Oh yeah, they’ll be gettin’ it on.” Instead, with M&K, I only see the romance as it is emerging, because of the situations at hand and the emotions we see them struggle through.

(As a side note, as gross as it may sound, I have a feeling that the creators did intend for there to be a faint hint of attraction between Mireille and her uncle. The voice acting for Mireille at the times before she finds out he’s loyal to the Soldats seems to change here. The way she speaks with him on the phone, the way she looks at the card on the flowers, seems to suggest a teenage girl response when the school’s cutest guy has just asked her to the dance. The way the uncle is drawn as well is not very uncle-ish, but drawn and animated more like a type of anime guy who often attracts the girls. Another point is that the dialog specifically points out that he’s her uncle from her mother’s side. I’m not sure about Japan, but I have heard about some Asian traditions that allow for incestual relationships as long as it’s family on your mother’s side, not your fathers. Reason being that the father’s side family is your “true” relatives and your mom only marries “into” that family. [I know Mireille and her uncle are not Japanese, but the show is made originally for a Japanese audience.] If this hint is true, then it further shows that Mireille’s relationship that later develops with Kirika is unlikely derived from any intrinsic attraction to girls in particular. I’m interested to know if this has ever been discussed before…)

I believe Mireille’s hidden feelings or affections for Kirika slowly emerges after Kirika leaves for the manor, but before the famous letter. There was definitely a feeling of loss and loneliness conveyed just by showing her shopping, eating, moving around with that single-seat scooter of hers. She repeats afterwards that she will kill Kirika, but it seems like she’s trying desperately to will herself to want to do it, despite the overriding emotions she would not acknowledge.

The Letter written by Kirika for Mireille was in my mind, and obviously as well as in many others’, fully laden with extraordinary meaning. Kirika seems to gush at Mireille, revealing emotions she has secretly held but can’t fully describe. The letter not only conveys a deep affection, but also demonstrates the true nature of M&K’s relationship up to this point. In the beginning, there was a palpable emotional distance between the two, a distance necessitated by circumstance and the unknown. But despite the imposed self-protection, a connection between them was established anyway, whether they were mindfully aware of it or not. We know by the letter that Kirika feels it already, but we now know it has surfaced in Mireille as well. We know because of her response to Graipaul in the next scene, where he asks her whether she’s willing to fight the world alone. Her response was, “Not necessarily… alone.” …I was almost giving the TV a standing ovation at this point. Right in that telling line, we then know that not only has she abandoned the ridiculous promise to kill Kirika, but also that she might even want to live a life with her. Kirika may never be able to atone, but she is forgiven, and by the one who matters to her most.

It seems there are some who dislike Mireille’s characterization because of her attitudes towards Kirika for most of the series. I myself thought Mireille’s responses to Kirika at times went beyond insensitivity. However, one should realize it was fully intended for Mireille to have long established this huge wall of ice around her heart to avoid emotional attachment to people she meets to protect herself, as required by the profession. This wall is initially much more likely to hold fort against somebody like Kirika, whom she does not fully understand, and whom she promises to kill later on. The creators set up this ice wall so that Kirika, as the series progresses, can remove that glacier slowly, piece by piece, though she wasn’t aware she was doing so. Enough of it was removed to prevent Mireille to pull the trigger when she was asked to, despite what they then knew. Then at once, the whole glacier tumbles down and melts after Mireille reads the letter, the letter that showed Kirika’s heart, that revealed what Mireille meant to Kirika, and made Mireille realize what Kirika meant to her. If Mireille has been kind and caring right from the beginning, it would have made her transition and her acts in the end to be much less compelling.

We discover ultimately that Mireille and Kirika are not very different people at all, despite obvious background and behavioral differences. Both are lost in a sense, detached from the world of normalcy, each lonely in their own way, trying to find their identity, and their purpose. And they eventually do find their lives are enriched by having someone there that understands them and who will be there for them.

Further along this topic, I prefer to believe there wasn’t any between-the-sheets action for M&K within the series’ timeframe, despite what evidence some have suggested to the contrary. I don’t think they would be emotionally open enough to ever initiate that indulgence within the episodes’ time. If there is to be physical intimacy between them, it would be after they’ve returned from the manor, preferably after they’ve revealed in spoken word to each other of their feelings, and of course, after Kirika heals up enough to get her flexibility back. If anything did occur before that, it would seem more like they’re only satisfying their fleeting lust and would only cheapen the meaning of the sex afterwards. After overcoming the hell and discovery of those few days, only surviving because of their devotion for each other, it is more believable that they would fall in love, allowing the fact they’re both girls to be pretty much a non-issue. This would be true for Mireille especially. Also, it is because of the show’s conclusion that the passion they would later share is magnified with the new knowledge of where they place in each others’ hearts, and knowing that they will be each other’s guide and support from then on as they face the world together.

What surprised me a bit while reading some responses about the show, was that some people would be content with, or even prefer, if it had been a Chloe/Kirika pairing as the conclusion. I can understand the facination with Chloe’s character. She is a dark, mysterious, skilled, character with a lot of character depth, genuine heart and child-like undertones. She’s ultimately a misguided individual, having lived a path of lies placed by Altena, the motherly figure she trusted more than anyone. The tragedies pile up in the end, as her place in Noir was a lie; her believed destiny with Kirika a pretense. She felt she was compelled to attack Mireille out of desperation, and died believing Kirika lied to her and betrayed her. She has definitely captured my sympathies. However, and this is not Chloe’s fault, her attachment for Kirika was all for the wrong reasons. Do not forget her admiration started as a child when she watched a very young Kirika slaughter down a family. She seemed to have been led to believe the “dark” Kirika is the real Kirika. Chloe wanted to be with Kirika insomuch as to fulfill the Grand Retour and Altena’s vision, which we of course know is not what Kirika would ever want for herself as long as her mind is clear. Chloe has been manipulated to the point of no return by Altena’s twisted game. And her fate, though very sad and heartbreaking, was inevitable and perhaps even necessary if Kirika is to move on and find her true self.

It is this where I find that if one wishes for Kirika to have ended up with Chloe, although only a minority that do, it is the same as wishing for Kirika a life of darkness and hate. Kirika would never be able to discover herself, to see her potential come to light, not as a killer but as a human being. Early on, Mireille may not have been the most compassionate person to Kirika, but somehow Kirika has been able to uncover so much of her own humanity by being with Mireille. The letter attests to that. And with Mireille’s now opened eyes and heart to Kirika, and each supporting the other physically and emotionally, as they walk away from the manor to start a new life together to seek the light, it could only get better for Kirika from then on. This is why it puzzles me as to why people would want a different fate for Kirika, assuming you wish the best for her, which I believe most do.

Well, if you’re still reading this at this point, congratulations. This is a longer write-up than I had initially planned. But this is what happens when I see something that I enjoy and continue to think about long after I finish watching. It’s a terrific series and I might start looking for more Anime to watch because of it, although I’m not sure if I’ll be able to find anything that’ll top Noir.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:38 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Wow!
It's nice to have such a vocal new member. I agree with much of what you say. Some comments:

I agree with your point that whether or not M&K are lesbians is almost irrelevant to their relationship. I don't think they are averse to it though ^_^

Mireille and her uncle, I agree we were probably supposed to wonder about it. I can just imagine them "playing doctor" as kids Twisted Evil but I doubt anything serious actually happened...

I understand your reasons why you would prefer to believe there was no sex during the series. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I would also have preferred Mireille was not so obviously using Kirika as a mere tool to assist her dirty work in some of the early episode, but that doesn't change the fact that it indeed happened. I can imagine quite easily how Mireille might have just used Kirika to get sexual gratification at that point. But no matter how bad they started off, I think they can grow beyond all that.

I'm a huge Chloe fan. I think it was Altena's plan to have a Chloe/Kirika pairing. That doesn't mean I think it would have been preferable if the ritual had continued according to Altena's plan.

I disagree with you that Chloe was beyond saving. I can see how it may be attractive to believe that Chloe's fate was inevitable. But I think that is grossly unfair. Mireille and Kirika had more than a year together to sort out their issues. Chloe simply never got that chance. We have no way of knowing what magnificent character development and bonding Kirika and Chloe could have achieved, if they had been living together for a year. I disagree that Chloe started out much worse than Mireille when she met Kirika, and that she was beyond redemption. I think Chloe was not wrong when she said "it should have been me living with you in Paris".

I don't believe Chloe was in love with "dark" Kirika, to me it is obvious from the time they are together at the Manor, that that is not the Kirika Chloe would prefer to be with. If Chloe tried to emulate the Kirika she admired, we should assume that she wanted to be with a Kirika who was like her.

I don't think Chloe's admiration for Kirika started from seeing her "slaughter down a family". I think at that point in their training, that would have been a non-issue already. It is my belief that what impressed Chloe so much, was that Kirika listened to Odette's last request and accepted to fulfill it. Episode 12 shows us I think the kind of ideal Chloe is trying to follow.

I don't really want a different fate for Kirika (besides of course the obvious wish that none of that shit ever happened) but I really wished Chloe would have gotten the same chance as the others. I think it would be better for Kirika also, if everyone could have been saved. It can be really depressing to know that your little bit of more humanity comes at the price of others' lives...
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:31 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Very good essay. I also agree with the most things. But to some I also have additional remarks.

Maybe that from Mireille to her uncle are romantic feelings. For sure he means much for her. He was the one who made her laugh, made her happy after that traumatic experience of her killed family. He is at least something like a father or big brother for her. But I'm also considering the possibility that her romantic feelings for her uncle are a projection of her surpressed love to Kirika to a trusted person.
noirci wrote:
If there is to be physical intimacy between them, it would be after they’ve returned from the manor, preferably after they’ve revealed in spoken word to each other of their feelings, and of course, after Kirika heals up enough to get her flexibility back.

I agree with you that there is no sex between them before the ending. But after that, no words between them are needed after what had happened inside the lava dome. And Kirika doesn't need her flexiblity back. They must not do acrobatics to get satisfaction. Gentle touching can do it also.

Regarding Chloe I have to aside FacelessMinion a little bit. If together with Kirika in Paris, she would have developed much. Even the pairing dark Kirika/Chloe wouldn't be that bad for Kirika. Chloe for sure would never let her down, and in the dark state Kirika wouldn't feel any longer that pain and sadness. And for sure Chloe could have been redeemed until that point she attacks Mireille the second time. If she had listened to Kirika. who knows...
FacelessMinion wrote:
I'm a huge Chloe fan. I think it was Altena's plan to have a Chloe/Kirika pairing. That doesn't mean I think it would have been preferable if the ritual had continued according to Altena's plan.

I don't think Altena had planed any pairing, but if so, then the Mirelle/Kirika pairing because she brings them together and lets Chloe contact them after they have proofen a strong bond between them for several times. And the final guidance. If Altena had planned Chloe/Kirika pairing, why she gives Chloe strict order only to tell Mirelle the truth about Kirika instead to let kill her like Chloe obviously wanted? The only thing I can see is that Kirika is Altenas prefered sapling and that she really loves her like she is her own child. I think she really wants to have the survivors of the trials as Noir, to have Noir as strong as possible. So we have 4 possibilites for Noir. The fourth possibility is really surprising, especially 'cause I'm thinking it's Altenas preferred - a Noir triple. Noir are two maiden, bond by a black thread. The two maiden are C & M, the black thread is K with the Corsican hit. The pairings K & M and K & C are obvious, and also a pairing M & C is possible during battle of the maiden - if both feel betrayed from Kirika.
And there is still a fiths possibility. We see Altena trying to create it in the lava dome with sacrifying Mireille - Kirika with her two sides of personality as one women Noir.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:52 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
If Altena had planned Chloe/Kirika pairing, why she gives Chloe strict order only to tell Mirelle the truth about Kirika instead to let kill her like Chloe obviously wanted?

You think Chloe obviously wanted to kill Mireille at the final guidance? I never had that impression, I thought she wanted to leave Mireille out of the matter completely, just let her know that Kirika was to become Noir but not tell her who killed her family or that she was also a sapling.
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:01 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
You think Chloe obviously wanted to kill Mireille at the final guidance?

Considering this dialog and Chloes look - yes. I think she wanted to get rid of a possible competitor for Noir. For me it seems like Altena also thinks that Chloe wants to kill Mireille

Chloe: But, what about her friend?
Altena: You should know it as well.
Altena: The Corsican girl also has the right.
Chloe: But..
Altena: Don't worry about it.
Altena: Just as you believe, that you and that child
Altena: are special.
Altena: For that child's friend, just letter her know
Altena: will be good enough.
Altena: Just the truth.
Chloe: Yes!
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:23 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
Considering this dialog and Chloes look - yes. I think she wanted to get rid of a possible competitor for Noir. For me it seems like Altena also thinks that Chloe wants to kill Mireille

I know what they said, I just don't see any indication for murderous intentions. I don't believe Chloe saw Mireille as a possible competitor for Noir, the idea would be ridiculous to her. My interpretation of the dialogue is that Chloe wants to spare Mireille the revelation about her family, but Altena insists that Mireille has the right to know the truth. At this point Mireille doesn't even know she is a Noir candidate because Chloe hasn't told her yet, so I don't see how she could possibly be competition.
Quote:
They must not do acrobatics to get satisfaction.

Don't give me strange ideas like that Laughing
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noirci
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:37 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Woah, lots of replies to ponder about. Many excellent points.

Regarding Uncle Claude: I do NOT believe (or ever want to believe) that anything did happen between Mireille and her uncle before he left Paris 5 years ago. That would just be sick, especially since he practically raised her to adulthood since they left Corsica. He might have been a Soldat, but hopefully he wasn't also a pedophile. The situation was a bit different during that episode when they reunited, especially for Mireille since she's now a mature young woman. And once she meets again the "strict teacher" she has looked up to, I think any attraction she felt only arose when they got re-acquainted.

I really don't like the wording: "Mireille using Kirika to gain sexual gratification". How about instead, "Mireille and Kirika using each other to gain sexual gratification". Wink That is a problem I often have with Japanese animated porn: The too-common theme of non-consensual sex.

But anyways, I can't seem to see how at any point within or between the episodes, that they got horny and agreed to shag. Even in that fanfic "In Perfect Silence", the setup for it was too unbelievable: Kirika insinuating an accusation that Mireille is seeing someone else, and Mireille feeling guilty that Kirika feels jilted. If that is the case, then the sense of romantic attachment or some sort of romantic "claim" has already existed long before the final episodes. This, as I said, would cheapen the effect of what I feel they've gained at the end of the series.

Chloe could not have been saved so long as Altena still held her leash. And if it were up to Chloe, Altena will always hold that leash, and Chloe would never allow Mireille or Kirika to kill Altena. And if her and Kirika did wind up together under Altena's control, it would have been, "Oh, that's what Altena said", or "What did Altena tell you?", "Altena this... Altena that...". And if somehow Altena was out of the picture, Chloe STILL would have herself and Kirika do the things Chloe believes Altena would want them to do.

I do not see any indication at all that Chloe's happy expression as a young girl seeing Kirika was due to Kirika holding up to a promise to Odette. And afterall, how could Chloe even tell Kirika was going to keep the promise? Kirika did not save Mireille at the Bouquet's house. The whole idea of going there was to kill off the Bouquets so that Mireille will be raised by the uncle as an assassin. As far as Chloe was concerned, she watched Kirika gun down a family. That was why she was so happy, and that is why she decided for herself that she would be an assassin. The cold, efficient murderer is all that mattered to Chloe.

That is an important example of the real Kirika, and why Chloe would not have any of it. The real Kirika is one who feels despair and horrific grief after learning she is the one who killed Mireille's family. Could Chloe tolerate any of that sorrow after they become the true Noir? No, because, as the 'True Noir', Altena would probably tell them to do the same thing to another family at some point.

Quote:
...in the dark state Kirika wouldn't feel any longer that pain and sadness.


i.e. two important things she needs to feel in order to find her humanity. We have to consider what Kirika wants for herself: Right in the beginning, she griefs that she is unable to feel sadness or remorse after killing. She needs to find that part of herself that feels despair, otherwise she would be nothing more than a killing machine. Specifically, the True Noir.

I did indirectly write that I believed Mireille and Kirika was sopposed to be the True Noir in Altena's mind from the beginning. I believe Altena saw the bond they have been building, and that was the mark of the True Noir rather than pure skill, and it was the pairing that Altena expected was going to pull through ultimately. But it can also very reasonably be interpreted as that Chloe/Kirika was Plan 'A' and Kirika/Mireille was Plan 'B'. It's also quite possible. It's not exactly easy to gauge Altena's mind since it's so twisted.

And finally, I also didn't get the impression that Chloe ever considered killing Mireille until the Manor scene. I think Chloe thought of Mireille's role in Noir to be insignificant at best, and posed no threat to her destiny with Kirika as the True Noir. She considered Mireille's task was only to help Kirika through the trials until it was time for Kirika to regain her memories. Why does she believe this? Because Altena told her so, of course. And to Chloe, Altena is always right. Even after Kirika returns to the manor, Chloe still suggests that the three still get together for tea. It was only after she saw Kirika attack Mireille that she decided to kill Mireille.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:23 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
noirci wrote:
That would just be sick, especially since he practically raised her to adulthood since they left Corsica. He might have been a Soldat, but hopefully he wasn't also a pedophile.

When they leave Corsica in the flashback, Claude looks like he's 14-15 years old at most... I don't think their age difference was such that he should be called a pedophile for being attracted to his niece at some point. But I don't think it actually happened.
Quote:
I really don't like the wording: "Mireille using Kirika to gain sexual gratification". How about instead, "Mireille and Kirika using each other to gain sexual gratification".

It's not a matter of liking. In the early episodes, Mireille demonstrated she couldn't care less about Kirika's feelings. They were not at all romantic with each other at that point. If anything sexual happened at that time, I think it is more likely that Mireille initiated it and Kirika didn't dare refuse, in the same way as Mireille gets Kirika to go along killing people although doing so makes Kirika cry.
Quote:
Chloe could not have been saved so long as Altena still held her leash. And if it were up to Chloe, Altena will always hold that leash

I respectfully decline to share your opinion about Chloe and her relation to Altena. But I think I would be repeating myself if I explained my reasons again, you've probably read them already elsewhere on the forum.
Quote:
I do not see any indication at all that Chloe's happy expression as a young girl seeing Kirika was due to Kirika holding up to a promise to Odette. And afterall, how could Chloe even tell Kirika was going to keep the promise?

Would you trust the care of your children to your murderer? Apparently Kirika convinced Odette, why wouldn't Chloe be convinced?
Quote:
The cold, efficient murderer is all that mattered to Chloe.

If that were true, Chloe would try to be only a cold efficient murderer also. This is not the case.
Quote:
No, because, as the 'True Noir', Altena would probably tell them to do the same thing to another family at some point.

And this is different from Mireille making Kirika kill Rosaly's daddy on her birthday in what way? Which really did happen, rather than being only wild speculation (we have no idea what Altena planned with Noir, but I'm convinced Grand Retour was NOT about getting a pair of pet assassins)...

Last edited by FacelessMinion on Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kamui
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:46 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
I know what they said, I just don't see any indication for murderous intentions. I don't believe Chloe saw Mireille as a possible competitor for Noir, the idea would be ridiculous to her.


I think Chloe definitly saw Mireille as a possible competitor - not for Noir, but for Kirika's friendship. So - yes, she wanted to kill her to the begin with - there are many elements in the series which proves it - included the example given above.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:09 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Kamui wrote:
So - yes, she wanted to kill her to the begin with - there are many elements in the series which proves it - included the example given above.

The example above proves nothing. Is this something different in the German version?
Please give your other examples of proof that Chloe wants Mireille dead. And explain why Chloe saves Mireille's life in every other episode if that is the case...
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:09 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
noirci wrote:
I do not see any indication at all that Chloe's happy expression as a young girl seeing Kirika was due to Kirika holding up to a promise to Odette. And afterall, how could Chloe even tell Kirika was going to keep the promise? Kirika did not save Mireille at the Bouquet's house.

I should perhaps clarify my theory a little more. Kirika did not save Mireille at the Bouquet house, but that was also not the nature of Odette's request. The indication I see that Chloe thought Kirika was going to keep the promise, is that this is what Chloe does. Chloe see, Chloe do, as it were Smile Episode 12 shows this; Chloe hears her target's confession and last wishes, and goes through considerable effort to tie up his loose ends (a little walk from Switzerland to East Germany while she must have really wanted to get back to Altena asap). She didn't just crash in and kill everyone, like she should do if she admires this in Kirika.

Chloe also isn't as mindless as you make her appear, particularly when Kirika's wellfare is concerned, for example in the Taiwan episode she goes to help Kirika and Mireille on her own initiative, and presumably against Altena's wishes.
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:41 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
The example above proves nothing. Is this something different in the German version?

The german version shows a little bit stronger that Mireille is competition for Noir. Altena says:" The young women from Corsica is also qualified." And Chloes "but.." and Altenas imperativly "only the truth" imply for me that Chloe wants to get rid of Mireille and Altena feels this.

Scenes where you can see that Chloe wants to get rid of Mireille? Of course ep. 10, holding knife at Mireilles throat. But she can't do it, because Kirika would kill her if she does. Possibly she hoped, Kirika would remember and let her do.

Another thing you can't see in English version, and I don't know if in Japanese. In Heartless Assassin II Chloe tells Kirika "I'm here to save you". This can mean Kirika or both. In German she says: "Ich bin hier um dich zu retten". This means only Kirika, otherwise she had to say "Ich bin hier um euch zu retten". She don't care for Mirelles life. But in this episode Chloe has to learn how much Mireille means to Kirika. And so she decides also to help Mireille from this point. But we can also see, that Chloe tries to part Kirika and Mirelle with words.

And I'm also thinking that Chloes desire to become Noir is stronger than her obsession to Kirika. Or better, it is the reason for her obsession to Kirika. In ep. 24, in her room, Chloe tells Kirika that she was at the Corsican hit like a true Noir and and therefore herself also wanted to become a true Noir. And later at the bath Chloe wished to repeat the teaparty after the Noir ceremony, together with Mireille. After ceremony Mirelle is no longer competition. And another thing, that her wish to become Noir is stronger than her obsession to Kirika I see at the saplings fight. As Mireille arrived Chloe is surprised about her bravery, to appear at the manor. So she don't interfere the fight between K & M, she wants to see who is stronger, to team up with the winner. But the fight ends remis, so she decides of course for Kirika.
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Bulmafox
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:00 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
And explain why Chloe saves Mireille's life in every other episode if that is the case...


Because it would break Kirika's heart if Mireille died, and Chloe knows that. She tells Mireille as much...I think it was in the Cold-Blooded Assassin, Acte II.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:01 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Bulmafox wrote:
Because it would break Kirika's heart if Mireille died, and Chloe knows that. She tells Mireille as much...I think it was in the Cold-Blooded Assassin, Acte II.

She either wants to kill Mireille or she doesn't. If she didn't kill Mireille earlier to spare Kirika's feelings, there is no reason Altena would need to order her down in episode 20. There were various occasions she could kill Mireille or allow her to be killed without anybody knowing she was involved. If Chloe really wanted to kill Mireille, Mireille would be dead, I think.

In episode 10 I think Chloe was testing Kirika's reaction. She was also blocking Mireille's move to shoot her in the back, which I'm pretty sure Mireille would have tried without the knife at her throat.

In Taiwan she said she came to help "anata", so probably just Kirika (Japanese is vague like that). But she did kill the guy with the scar just as he was about to kill Mireille.

I think Chloe was sincere when she said she wanted to be Mireille's friend, for Kirika's sake.

Perhaps she tries to part them with words, but that is not the same as killing Mireille...

Quote:
And I'm also thinking that Chloes desire to become Noir is stronger than her obsession to Kirika. Or better, it is the reason for her obsession to Kirika.

I'm hesitating about this, sometimes I think it's like that, sometimes I think it's the reverse. Rolling Eyes
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
In episode 10 I think Chloe was testing Kirika's reaction. She was also blocking Mireille's move to shoot her in the back, which I'm pretty sure Mireille would have tried without the knife at her throat.

Testing Kirikas reaction isn't that far away from trying to bring back Kirikas memories. But for Mireille I think different. She is so much shocked about hearing Chloe say "I'm the true Noir" that she behaves like an absolute beginner. She doesn't follow Chloe with her gun as she starts walking out. And she lets get Chloe behind her back. After Chloe stops in her back, she tries to turn around. That's the moment when Chloe pulls the knife. If Chloe simply walked away, I think nothing would happened. If she wanted to kill Chloe, she had better chances before.

Quote:
I think Chloe was sincere when she said she wanted to be Mireille's friend, for Kirika's sake.

No need to doubt it. Maybe I haven't expressed it clear enough. I believe Chloe is struggling on the question to get rid of Mirelle or to get her friend because of Kirika. I think good to see is this in ep. 18, Chloe telling Kirika " I was thinking of leaving the matter alone. This is no more than the usual trials one must face. But.. it's your friend.."

In ep. 20 we have a special situation. Chloe should do final guidance, which for sure would part Mirelle and Kirka and bring Kirka to the manor as true Noir. So no need to care any longer. And there is still the possiblity that Mireille kills Kirika after truth reveals. So killing Mireille would bring Chloe much closer to her objective to become Noir, since she doesn't consider Mireille as true Noir at this point. But she knows Mireille is qualified - so if Mireille shots Kirika, automaticly Mireille would get Noir.
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Kamui
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: My 2 francs... 	Reply with quote
To the begin with, I must tell you one thing - great essay! I hope you become the idol of the future members of this forum, so they also post topics like this Very Happy

I TOTALLY agree with you about Mireille and Kirikas connection, but I have to disagree about Mireilles 'love' to Claude.

Maybe you're right and the family-affairs are a lil' bit different in Japan, but I think that the series is supposed to be as realistic as possible - so - what the hell do a corsican family have to do with japanese traditions? Wink

noirci wrote:
It seems there are some who dislike Mireille’s characterization because of her attitudes towards Kirika for most of the series. I myself thought Mireille’s responses to Kirika at times went beyond insensitivity.


Erm - I like Kirika more than Mireille because she's too impulsive and too selfish - you're right, of course, but the previous named reasons were more important for my decission....Smile

noirci wrote:
We discover ultimately that Mireille and Kirika are not very different people at all, despite obvious background and behavioral differences. Both are lost in a sense, detached from the world of normalcy, each lonely in their own way, trying to find their identity, and their purpose. And they eventually do find their lives are enriched by having someone there that understands them and who will be there for them.


You're absolutely right. That's the reason why they're bound together by a black thread - not only in the name of Noir, but for their search for light.

The last thing is the Kirika/Chloe pairing. They're perfect as Noir, no doubt about it. But Chloe is much too fanatic about Althena's plans. Kirika would change to an 'insane cold Noir-wannabe' like she is - surely, Chloes character may have fascination, but she also has some kind of 'psychopath-attitude' (especially in episode 25 Laughing ). Inside she's a sad girl which never had a childhood. She already commited more sins like every person which is double as old as she is, I guess - that - and Althena's manipulating, of course - destroyed her eternal character and reduced her to Althena's puppet - and made her going insane, in a sense (just remember the 'mad tea party' - damn, which extremely-skilled-assassin goes to see his 'enemys' and has a cup of tea with them? The same about episode 12).

I disagree with almost everything fallenangel wrote, including:

- the relationship between Mireille and Kirika (once again Smile)
- Althena's plan of a Mireille/Kirika pairing (which is nonsense, of course - Mireille is too much like an uncontrollable rebell - she hates Les Soldats - she never wanted to get involved in the whole Noir-thing at all - her family sacrificed their lifes, so she didn't have to - tell me now - why should she cooperate? Confused )
- A Kirika-Only-True-Noir-Team with her split personality (maybe she has got a split personality, but she can't fight like two people - that's the idea of a Noir-TEAM - one to back the other up during hits)

He still shares my point of view about:

- Chloes wish to kill Mirelle
- Claudes big-brother-roll to offer Mireille some sort of protection

I agree with most in faceless' reply.
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Kamui
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:13 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
The example above proves nothing. Is this something different in the German version?


I've never seen the series with English dub, so I can't tell you Smile

FacelessMinion wrote:
Please give your other examples of proof that Chloe wants Mireille dead. And explain why Chloe saves Mireille's life in every other episode if that is the case...


Chloe sees Mireille as a competition for Kirikas trusting and friendship. That's reason enough for her to kill Mireille, no doubt about it.

She saves Mireilles life because she's Kirikas friend (Chloe tells her in episode 18 after Mireille took out the sniper at the Bouquet residence - so that's proved, I suppose Smile).
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noirci
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:14 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
If anything sexual happened at that time, I think it is more likely that Mireille initiated it and Kirika didn't dare refuse, in the same way as Mireille gets Kirika to go along killing people although doing so makes Kirika cry.


Sexual coercion never leads to a healthy romance, unless the 2 already subscribe to some twisted form of sexual gratification. I can't see how Mireille would ever need to force herself onto anybody to achieve sexual satisfaction anyway. She is NOT a perverted individual, and you cannot infer that she is even if she was "using" Kirika to kill. Those are 2 very different things. Linking the two would be the more likely scenario of a Noir-based hentai.

Besides that point however, the first episode showed Kirika asking to join Mireille. Mireille did not ever force Kirika to go to Paris with her. It was a mutual agreement to join forces as partners and work in Mireille's trade as a pair. You make Mireille sound like some sort of assassin pimp.

Kirika had tears sometimes after killing because she does NOT feel sorrow for her deeds. She does NOT cry over the killing itself. Isn't that a huge point of the Kirika mystery? Even if she somehow never needs to kill anybody after the first episode, it doesn't change the fact that she would NOT feel sadness if she did. That is what she can’t figure out, and that’s why it upsets her. It is misleading to say that Mireille prods Kirika along the path of murder even though killing people makes her cry.

Quote:
And this is different from Mireille making Kirika kill Rosaly's daddy on her birthday in what way?


I did find it interesting that Mireille would choose to continue the assignment after seeing Rosalie, especially since it has the same vibes as how her own family was killed. I can’t say I have any real explanation for this. The only thing I considered, and this is by no means a justification for what they did, is that as far as they can tell, Hammond was a neglectful father. Their first sight of them together was Hammond slapping Rosalie for coming to visit. And Mireille and Kirika couldn’t have known of Hammond’s change of heart about his daughter in the middle of the episode, although we get the idea that Kirika finds this out at the end when she sees his present. This is why the last scene with Kirika and Rosalie was so compelling.

But in any event, if you really wish to analyze it, Mireille’s entire life was a total contradiction. Her job is to kill people. This despite the fact her family was (as far as she knew) likely killed by a hitman just like her. And what about all the other henchmen they kill? Don’t they have families? Wouldn’t the list of kids who lose their fathers continue to rise in number in every episode? How many viewers do you think ever gave that any consideration? Being a story of 2 hired assassins, there is only a small area to squirm in before you delve into the morally questionable area. I don’t think the creators of the show ever denied this, and probably intended for the question to be raised, without really giving any answers.

One also has to consider that Mireille didn’t ever give any thought as to who pulled the trigger that led to her family’s deaths. It only really became an issue when she found out it was Kirika. Her quest for vengeance has always been at the ones who ordered the assassination, not the one(s) who carried it out. I can’t say for sure, but I get the feeling that she doesn’t feel responsibility for the ones she’s been hired to kill, because she wasn’t the one who ordered them dead. Is that justification? No. Is it cold and unfeeling? Yes. But it’s all she knows, and it’s what keeps her alive and sane. She probably believed that Kirika felt the same way, as killing is really all that Kirika knows well at that point.

Another thing I should point out, is that what makes M&K’s relationship a winner in my mind was a great deal to do with Mireille’s dramatic shift in her perception of Kirika from episode 1 to 26. Her actions in the end speak volumes of what place Kirika now has in her heart. It’s arguable, but I believe they do retire as hired assassins after the manor. It may or may not be taken literally, but I don’t think “seeking the light” has anything further to do with contracted murder as far as M&K is concerned. What will they do? Impossible to tell, and on the whole, is irrelevant, since whatever they do, we find warmth in knowing they’ll face anything the future has to offer together.

Quote:
I respectfully decline to share your opinion about Chloe and her relation to Altena


Perhaps the phrase, “on a leash” might be a bit too harsh. But my point is that as long as Chloe follows Altena’s influence without question, believing her words are the final truth, Chloe could not grow beyond the path she was given. Something else needs to arise or be discovered by Chloe that is profoundly disturbing about Altena or her plans in order for Chloe to question all the influence Altena has exerted probably since her birth. Perhaps if she had lived long enough to see that her long cherished destiny with Kirika might not have been Altena’s only choice for Noir, perhaps even not the first choice. That might be enough to at least shake the foundation of Chloe’s allegiance to Altena and her plans. It would be at least a start for Chloe to look at her life a bit differently. That is also part of what makes her death so tragic, as she died just before Altena reveals this. But would Altena reveal her alternate ideas this if Chloe hadn’t died?

It is this reason that I believe even if it was Chloe guiding Kirika through the trials in Paris, as long as Altena exists to preach her authority, there would be no purpose, no motivation, for Chloe to seek any other truth. And thus nothing will change for Chloe, and could only be detrimental to Kirika’s hopes of ever finding her own normal self.

Further, even if Chloe was somehow able to eventually find redemption in herself despite a life as the True Noir with Kirika, it would require Kirika to live another extended period of time of hell until then. Because of the aforementioned lack of personal drive for Chloe to seek this, would it take years? Decades? Dark Kirika would need to arise often in order for Kirika to survive this prolonged ordeal, and I feel that this inner struggle would eventually lead to Kirika’s own psychological destruction. Do we want Kirika to go through this?

One possible scenario that might possibly lead to all 3 saplings being happy campers is one where somehow Chloe wasn’t killed at that fateful moment, but somehow survived and witnessed M&K confront Altena. Altena would express her true ideals, and Chloe would feel betrayed by Altena upon hearing this. Then, the final comeuppance against Altena is that all 3 saplings turn against her, and throws her into the lava. Then all 3 walk away from the Manor together, saying to Breffort and crew: “If you think you had a hard time with 2 of us, imagine what you’ll get if you come against 3 of us!” …I don’t know, but that somehow feels a bit contrived. Too “wrapped in a neat bow” kind of ending. Chloe’s death is tragic, no doubt, and on a strictly personal level I didn’t want to see her die. But it happened. True to life as far as anime can get, not everyone will be blessed with the opportunity to discover oneself. Unfortunately for Chloe, she was one who was not.

(I've gotta stop writing these essays... it's cutting into my MGS: Twin Snakes time.)
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noirci
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:21 am    Post subject: Re: My 2 francs... 	Reply with quote
Kamui wrote:
The last thing is the Kirika/Chloe pairing. They're perfect as Noir, no doubt about it. But Chloe is much too fanatic about Althena's plans. Kirika would change to an 'insane cold Noir-wannabe' like she is - surely, Chloes character may have fascination, but she also has some kind of 'psychopath-attitude' (especially in episode 25 Laughing ). Inside she's a sad girl which never had a childhood.


Wow, we agree on something!
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:03 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
The last thing is the Kirika/Chloe pairing. They're perfect as Noir, no doubt about it. But Chloe is much too fanatic about Althena's plans. Kirika would change to an 'insane cold Noir-wannabe' like she is

I don't think this is a good description of Chloe's character.
Quote:
Chloes character may have fascination, but she also has some kind of 'psychopath-attitude' (especially in episode 25 ).

Can you name a character that doesn't display psychopathic behaviour in episode 25? I thought not...
Quote:
I can't see how Mireille would ever need to force herself onto anybody to achieve sexual satisfaction anyway. She is NOT a perverted individual, and you cannot infer that she is even if she was "using" Kirika to kill.

I said I see it as a possibility. IF they were having sex in the early episodes, that is how I think it likely happened. I don't mean to say here that Kirika would have hated to have sex with Mireille, just like she didn't have to be dragged kicking and screaming to a job. What I'm saying is that Mireille didn't really care about Kirika's feelings, and would have browbeaten Kirika into it if needed. I find it difficult to imagine Kirika initiating anything sexual at the time of the early episodes. So I think either nothing happened, or Mireille wanted to "use" Kirika for more than just killing.
Quote:
It was a mutual agreement to join forces as partners and work in Mireille's trade as a pair. You make Mireille sound like some sort of assassin pimp.

In my opinion, that is exactly how Mireille behaves. Kirika asked for Mireille to team up to make a "pilgrimage to the past", not to start a business venture, butchering some people to fatten Mireille's bank account did nothing to advance that goal.
Quote:
Kirika had tears sometimes after killing because she does NOT feel sorrow for her deeds. She does NOT cry over the killing itself.

She would not be crying if Mireille did not make her kill...
Quote:
The only thing I considered, and this is by no means a justification for what they did, is that as far as they can tell, Hammond was a neglectful father.

You didn't address the question; how was Mireille making Kirika murder people any different from a Kirika having to hypothetically murder people if she were with Chloe? Whether or not the people in question deserve to die is irrelevant. For that matter I have a rather low opinion of Mireille's parents; building their little empire of crime relying on Soldats' backing, and everything is dandy as long as it's someone else's children that do the sacrificing.
Quote:
I don’t think the creators of the show ever denied this, and probably intended for the question to be raised, without really giving any answers.

You still didn't address how that means Kirika would be worse off with Chloe. And to make a fair comparison, you have to compare with Mireille before she went through all her character growth phase.
Quote:
Something else needs to arise or be discovered by Chloe that is profoundly disturbing about Altena or her plans in order for Chloe to question all the influence Altena has exerted probably since her birth.

I see no reason why living with Kirika couldn't do this for her. Mireille also didn't really have any obvious reasons or motivation to change her ways. Yet she did, almost despite herself. Kirika could arguably have an even more profound effect on Chloe. There wouldn't even be a need of any "betrayal" by Altena. I think you really underestimate Kirika if you think her company would do nothing for Chloe.
Quote:
Further, even if Chloe was somehow able to eventually find redemption in herself despite a life as the True Noir with Kirika, it would require Kirika to live another extended period of time of hell until then. Because of the aforementioned lack of personal drive for Chloe to seek this, would it take years? Decades?

I disagree that Chloe lacks drive to seek rapport with Kirika. Compared to Mireille at the start, I would say it's quite the opposite.
Quote:
Dark Kirika would need to arise often in order for Kirika to survive this prolonged ordeal

Kirika's prolonged ordeal in dealing with Mireille's cruel ways didn't lead to her psychological destruction. She managed to grow quite nicely despite that, unlike Chloe, Mireille didn't care for her and was actually planning to kill her. I see no reason why doing essentially the same things together with Chloe would have a fundamentally different effect on Kirika. And I don't think Chloe needs to make a living with her skills, so it is uncertain whether they would actually need to do any killing.
Quote:
Do we want Kirika to go through this?

What we want is to carry her off to... let's stay within the reality of the series Wink

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Kamui
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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Location: Vienna, Austria
	
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:35 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
noirci wrote:
Kirika had tears sometimes after killing because she does NOT feel sorrow for her deeds. She does NOT cry over the killing itself. Isn't that a huge point of the Kirika mystery? Even if she somehow never needs to kill anybody after the first episode, it doesn't change the fact that she would NOT feel sadness if she did. That is what she can’t figure out, and that’s why it upsets her. It is misleading to say that Mireille prods Kirika along the path of murder even though killing people makes her cry.


I totally agree. It's not Mireille fault at all because she never forced Kirika to do anything she didn't wanted.

By the way - I still request Kirikas thoughts about killing. I mean, she's an assassin - so what's better than executing a hit without feeling sad after you killed your target? I never actually understood Kirikas sadness about it. Does she want to be more 'human'? As said in episode 26, one has to take responsebility for the commited sins - so why do they bother her so much? She's Noir, so she's supposed to kill people - if I'd be her I'd bomb a whole damn mall when it's weekend and there are hundrets of people inside without feeling sad or responsible about it. But, well, her sadness is just something which makes her more mysterious....

noirci wrote:
But in any event, if you really wish to analyze it, Mireille’s entire life was a total contradiction. Her job is to kill people. This despite the fact her family was (as far as she knew) likely killed by a hitman just like her. And what about all the other henchmen they kill? Don’t they have families? Wouldn’t the list of kids who lose their fathers continue to rise in number in every episode? How many viewers do you think ever gave that any consideration? Being a story of 2 hired assassins, there is only a small area to squirm in before you delve into the morally questionable area. I don’t think the creators of the show ever denied this, and probably intended for the question to be raised, without really giving any answers.


As I mentioned very often, Mireille is too selfish to recognize such things. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe she is conscious about what she's doing, maybe her attitude is like 'assasssins killed my family, so don't give a damn about all the others' - we don't know.

noirci wrote:
One also has to consider that Mireille didn’t ever give any thought as to who pulled the trigger that led to her family’s deaths. It only really became an issue when she found out it was Kirika. Her quest for vengeance has always been at the ones who ordered the assassination, not the one(s) who carried it out. I can’t say for sure, but I get the feeling that she doesn’t feel responsibility for the ones she’s been hired to kill, because she wasn’t the one who ordered them dead. Is that justification? No. Is it cold and unfeeling? Yes. But it’s all she knows, and it’s what keeps her alive and sane. She probably believed that Kirika felt the same way, as killing is really all that Kirika knows well at that point.


I totally agree with you. I had the same thoughts about it. She never blamed the person who executed the hit because she's an assassin herself - and so she's not allowed to have feelings like this.

noirci wrote:
Another thing I should point out, is that what makes M&K’s relationship a winner in my mind was a great deal to do with Mireille’s dramatic shift in her perception of Kirika from episode 1 to 26. Her actions in the end speak volumes of what place Kirika now has in her heart. It’s arguable, but I believe they do retire as hired assassins after the manor. It may or may not be taken literally, but I don’t think “seeking the light” has anything further to do with contracted murder as far as M&K is concerned. What will they do? Impossible to tell, and on the whole, is irrelevant, since whatever they do, we find warmth in knowing they’ll face anything the future has to offer together.


They surely will continue to take over jobs and to kill people in order of them. As I said, I think that the fight against Les Soldats will never be really over. Noir will have to battle them until the whole organisation is destroyed. The assassins against the evil, judgement and brutality of thousands of years....Smile

But, in fact, we'll never know - we can just be sure of one thing - you already mentioned it - they'll be together, of course.



noirci wrote:
Perhaps the phrase, “on a leash” might be a bit too harsh. But my point is that as long as Chloe follows Altena’s influence without question, believing her words are the final truth, Chloe could not grow beyond the path she was given. Something else needs to arise or be discovered by Chloe that is profoundly disturbing about Altena or her plans in order for Chloe to question all the influence Altena has exerted probably since her birth. Perhaps if she had lived long enough to see that her long cherished destiny with Kirika might not have been Altena’s only choice for Noir, perhaps even not the first choice. That might be enough to at least shake the foundation of Chloe’s allegiance to Altena and her plans. It would be at least a start for Chloe to look at her life a bit differently. That is also part of what makes her death so tragic, as she died just before Altena reveals this. But would Altena reveal her alternate ideas this if Chloe hadn’t died?


You're right. But Chloe got manipulated for too long. It was too late for her, in a sense. She'd never stop following Althena as long as she's alive. If Althena would have died before her, she'd start running amok in her despriteness and insanity, I suppose. Chloe IS some kind of psychopath, in a sense - nothing she's doing during the whole series is normal or typical for someone in her possition. You can see it in episode 10, 12, 18, 19, 21, 25 (espacially in this episode Very Happy ). She is a 'damaged child', somehow happy but still totally lost. Cold, skilled as an assassin, but infantil, foolish, fanatic - her japanese voice even backs up my point of view. This child-like, calm voice - it fits perfectly when you share my opinion.

I don't think Chloe is totally crazy, of course, but she's really corrupted and influenced by Althena's manipulation - that meant to have consequences - especially for her personality.

noirci wrote:
Further, even if Chloe was somehow able to eventually find redemption in herself despite a life as the True Noir with Kirika, it would require Kirika to live another extended period of time of hell until then. Because of the aforementioned lack of personal drive for Chloe to seek this, would it take years? Decades? Dark Kirika would need to arise often in order for Kirika to survive this prolonged ordeal, and I feel that this inner struggle would eventually lead to Kirika’s own psychological destruction. Do we want Kirika to go through this?


As I already wrote in another posting - Kirika would get as insane and corrupted as Chloe already is. No, I don't want her to go through this, personally - because we still have a Chloe, we don't need another one Smile

noirci wrote:
One possible scenario that might possibly lead to all 3 saplings being happy campers is one where somehow Chloe wasn’t killed at that fateful moment, but somehow survived and witnessed M&K confront Altena. Altena would express her true ideals, and Chloe would feel betrayed by Altena upon hearing this. Then, the final comeuppance against Altena is that all 3 saplings turn against her, and throws her into the lava. Then all 3 walk away from the Manor together, saying to Breffort and crew: “If you think you had a hard time with 2 of us, imagine what you’ll get if you come against 3 of us!”


Chloe would never 'change sides' as long as she lives. Reasons are given above in this reply.

noirci wrote:
(I've gotta stop writing these essays... it's cutting into my MGS: Twin Snakes time.)


You're also a MGS-Fan? So that's why you write essays like this Laughing

I'm even more fanatic about MGS than about Noir - I hope to read an essay about the game someday, it'd be as intresting to read as your comments on Noir before, I suppose Smile
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FallenAngel
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:25 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Kamui wrote:
- A Kirika-Only-True-Noir-Team with her split personality (maybe she has got a split personality, but she can't fight like two people - that's the idea of a Noir-TEAM - one to back the other up during hits)

So why then Altenas third shot, the one which catches Kirika with her body, aims at Mireilles heart? Who should team up with Kirka, after two of the three saplings are dead? Altena herself?

Kamui wrote:
- Althena's plan of a Mireille/Kirika pairing (which is nonsense, of course - Mireille is too much like an uncontrollable rebell - she hates Les Soldats - she never wanted to get involved in the whole Noir-thing at all - her family sacrificed their lifes, so she didn't have to - tell me now - why should she cooperate? Confused

I said the prefered Noir coupling for Altena would be a Noir triple - M & K & C, but she would also be satisfied with every possible pairing. Next preference would be of course the K & M pairing, considering what I'm thinking of Altenas plan for Grand Retoure - to destroy Les Soldats. You write the reasons why it's the next best. I wonder that you don't oppose against the M & C pairing.

I feel a little bit sad about something what is said about the sapling in this thread, especially about Chloe and Mireille. With FacelessMinion I agree about the most (not all) points for Chloe. So he is defending Chloes color - I will do for Mirelle.

Mireilles job has for sure to do with her past, with her killed family. She's seeking for revenge - blood revenge, like it is common at Corsica, especially with the background of an criminal syndicate. So she becomes an assassin. As long as she hasn't got her revenge, she "helps" other people to get their revenge - by doing the assassinations. You can look at all kills they do - it always has to do with revenge (if it is not self defense) - revenge for others or her own quest for revenge. Unfortunatly we see them never refuse a request for assassination - but Mireille would never agree to "Kill my husband, I want his life insurance", no matter how good the payment is. And that they think about to undertake or not we can see in ep. 3. And yes, they killed many people, which also have families. But how many lives they have saved by killing the most of their targets, for example Hammond and his underlings? Consider what Atreide Co. is doing. If they now are out of business, much more people are saved. (Or compared to Germanys past: If one of the over 40 attempts to kill Hitler had been successfull - How many lives had been saved? For sure Millions.)

Mireille has problems to kill female Killers, I think because it's like killing herself. She can't kill Kirika in ep. 1, 7, 18, 21, and 25 (as FacelessMinion proposed in another thread also in 2 and 3), she can't kill Chloe that several times (ep. 10, 11, 20, 25, and possibly 16 and 17), she can't kill Intoccabile twice. And after killing her she feels regrets. For killing Belladonna lilly lady she also feels regrets. The only man she killed we can see this is her uncle Claude. That she didn't want to kill Nazarov is also why he is like her - his family, father, mother, little sister, was murdered as he was a child. Later on he took bitter revenge at the Tadshil.

And surprisingly - she has the unconcious wish to be killed by a female assassin. At least 3 times from Kirika:
- in ep. 1, returning Kirika the Beretta pointing at herself,
- in ep. 21 at the cemetary - at the beginning Kirika is pointing at her and Mireille shows no reaction, simply waiting for Kirika to shot
- in ep. 25, at the end of the fight with Kirika - she gives up her cover
- if we count FacelessMinions ep2 and 3 above, also ep.2, asking Kirika to give her the knife Very Happy
And of course from Intoccabile. She simply waits for her to get stabbed with the knife instead to shot her from distance.
Possibly also once from Chloe - allowing Chloe to get into her back in ep.10

For me she cares for Kirikas feelings from the beginning. The first times it isn't that strong to see, and sometimes it is a little bit rude, especially if she tries to distract Kirika from depressive thoughts. And the times, we see her hurt Kirika, she is hurt herself. Kirika doesn't kill because Mireille forced her. She kills because she loves Mireille (As I mentioned in another post - love at first sight).

So we have in K & M Altenas "If one can kill for love (K), hatred can save lives (M)"
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:50 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
So why then Altenas third shot, the one which catches Kirika with her body, aims at Mireilles heart? Who should team up with Kirka, after two of the three saplings are dead? Altena herself?


Nobody. Althena doesn't actually see Mireille as a 'real' Noir-candidate because she's not loyal enough. I think Althena planned to kill both, Mireille and Kirika, then restart the whole thing - search candidates, take them to the manor, ....

By the way - this fact is proved (Althena talked about it several times).

FallenAngel wrote:
I said the prefered Noir coupling for Altena would be a Noir triple - M & K & C, but she would also be satisfied with every possible pairing.


Not really - Althena just wanted Mireille to get through the trials because she'd be able to chose who fits Noir best. If Kirika and Chloe wouldn't fit, she'd still have Mireille to change the pairing.

FallenAngel wrote:
Next preference would be of course the K & M pairing, considering what I'm thinking of Altenas plan for Grand Retoure - to destroy Les Soldats.


Althena never wanted to destroy Les Soldats - but, well, we already discussed about it in another topic Smile

FallenAngel wrote:
I wonder that you don't oppose against the M & C pairing.


I thought I wouldn't need to. Althena never wanted Mireille to become a part of Noir, as I mentioned, so....Smile

FallenAngel wrote:
As long as she hasn't got her revenge, she "helps" other people to get their revenge - by doing the assassinations. You can look at all kills they do - it always has to do with revenge (if it is not self defense) - revenge for others or her own quest for revenge.


Revenge is just one of many reasons to kill someone. If Mireille really did become an assassin just because of this she'd get kicked out of her apartement very soon, because she wouldn't be able to pay all her bills if she takes over jobs which have to do with family-intern revenge Wink

FallenAngel wrote:
Unfortunatly we see them never refuse a request for assassination - but Mireille would never agree to "Kill my husband, I want his life insurance", no matter how good the payment is.


She would. Otherwise, she'd not be a 'real' assassin, just some kind of 'amok-running judge'. And, please, think about the reason given above - just as Kirika said - they live, because they kill people - Mireille don't have a second job or something like that - she wouldn't be able to pay her bills if you're right.

FallenAngel wrote:
And yes, they killed many people, which also have families. But how many lives they have saved by killing the most of their targets, for example Hammond and his underlings? Consider what Atreide Co. is doing. If they now are out of business, much more people are saved.


They definitely wiped more lifes out than they could ever save (think about the killers of Les Soldats, the knights of paris, the soldiers in episode 4, the rebels in ulgaria, the private army of Albert Dux, ....).

We don't know about Atreide after Hammond got killed by Noir. Maybe they got a new leader and the keep going on with planning wars - you can hardly disgree because you can't be sure about it Smile

FallenAngel wrote:
Mireille has problems to kill female Killers, I think because it's like killing herself. She can't kill Kirika in ep. 1, 7, 18, 21, and 25 (as FacelessMinion proposed in another thread also in 2 and 3), she can't kill Chloe that several times (ep. 10, 11, 20, 25, and possibly 16 and 17), she can't kill Intoccabile twice.


Mireille just couldn't kill Kirika because they're bound together with a black thread of fate. She couldn't kill Chloe because Chloe'd wipe her out in a second (mention episode 25 Smile). Mireille was afraid of Silvana, that's why she couldn't kill her - she was so scared that she wasn't even able to move when Silvana confronted her first at Sicilia and gave her the kiss of death. So you're totally wrong again, fallenangel Wink

FallenAngel wrote:
And after killing her she feels regrets.


I agree. It's just like in episode 25 - Kirika knew that Chloe was an enemy - she killed her - and was very sad about it. I can't understand why, because Kirika must have recognized that she wasn't able to save Chloe, but....Smile

Beside - I also would have shot Althena at the manor, if I were Kirika. Why didn't she just pulled the trigger when Althena confronted her with her past.... Confused

FallenAngel wrote:
And surprisingly - she has the unconcious wish to be killed by a female assassin. At least 3 times from Kirika:
- in ep. 1, returning Kirika the Beretta pointing at herself,
- in ep. 21 at the cemetary - at the beginning Kirika is pointing at her and Mireille shows no reaction, simply waiting for Kirika to shot
- in ep. 25, at the end of the fight with Kirika - she gives up her cover
- if we count FacelessMinions ep2 and 3 above, also ep.2, asking Kirika to give her the knife Very Happy


That's nonsense - sorry, but - she knew that Kirika is loyal - she even told her that she don't think Kirika is going to betray her - I think Mireille knew exactly that her partner would never shoot at her.


FallenAngel wrote:
And of course from Intoccabile. She simply waits for her to get stabbed with the knife instead to shot her from distance.


I already mentioned above, why. She was so afraid that she couldn't move - or shoot Smile

FallenAngel wrote:
Possibly also once from Chloe - allowing Chloe to get into her back in ep.10


If she'd have attacked Chloe in episode 10 Chloe would have killed her because she's much quicker then Mireille - it'd have been suicide, and Mireille knew about this fact, I suppose.

FallenAngel wrote:
For me she cares for Kirikas feelings from the beginning. The first times it isn't that strong to see, and sometimes it is a little bit rude, especially if she tries to distract Kirika from depressive thoughts. And the times, we see her hurt Kirika, she is hurt herself. Kirika doesn't kill because Mireille forced her. She kills because she loves Mireille (As I mentioned in another post - love at first sight).


Do I really have to comment this? I don't think so....Smile

FallenAngel wrote:
So we have in K & M Altenas "If one can kill for love (K), hatred can save lives (M)"


Erm - Kirika didn't kill Mireille's parents out of love for them Laughing
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noirci
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:03 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Faceless,

In the immortal words of Keanu Reeves, “The problem is choice.”

That seems to be the fundamental difference in our viewpoints, and why we will probably never find common ground. I saw that Kirika had choice. It was her choice to join Mireille in her work, her choice to kill, and her choice to stay with Mireille.

You cannot infer that Kirika was too afraid to oppose Mireille. Kirika shows time and time again that she would not hesitate to defy Mireille’s wishes if that was her perogative. Kirika continued to see Milosh despite Mireille’s objections. Kirika openly defied Mireille when Mireille went to kill her uncle alone. Kirika was watching over Mireille’s first meeting with Intoccobile against Mireille’s wishes. Kirika invited Chloe to have tea at their table despite Mireille’s obvious apprehension. Mireille did not at any point that I could see, coerce Kirika into doing anything she didn’t want to. Mireille even specifically offered Kirika a choice to not kill Nazarov if she didn’t want to. But Kirika chose to do it anyway. You can say Mireille was a b*tch for being so cold, but she did not at any point suppress Kirika’s right to choose.

You seem to believe the entire series was about a master and her obedient slave. And how the slave eventually falls for the tormenter. It’s your right to believe that, but that is an especially twisted perception of Noir.

Quote:
Mireille also didn't really have any obvious reasons or motivation to change her ways.


Mireille had no motivation? How about the revelation that her whole life was a setup by the Soldats for her to exist in a lifestyle that suited their plans? How about the one she trusted most in her life, her uncle, was the tool used by the Soldats to make sure she didn’t choose any other way of living? And the most important thing, the discovery that her parents died trying to prevent her from becoming what she was now close to becoming: A heartless killing machine, a woman living a life of darkness. How’s that for motivation to change?

Chloe, on the other hand, had NO reason to seek the truth. As far as she was concerned, she knew the truth, because Altena is the only person that can speak it. And as long as there isn’t a really good reason for her to question that, she will NOT grow as an individual. Kirika’s own realization of the truth, her declared rejection of the path that leads to the destiny chosen for her, only came about because of Mireille, since it is because of her that Kirika could snap out of her state. Chloe did have true affections for Kirika, but only because of the belief in this pre-programmed destiny. And even when Chloe demonstrates her affections with a kiss, it did nothing to release Kirika from her hypnotized emotionless state.

Mireille and Kirika’s journey was one of discovery and enlightenment, for both of them. If it had been Chloe and Kirika since the beginning, all it would be is Chloe reiterating, “Whatever you do, follow Altena’s will.” Everything to Chloe is black and white. There is no room for personal indulgences like choice. Choice is irrelevant because it has already been made.

Quote:
They surely will continue to take over jobs and to kill people in order of them. As I said, I think that the fight against Les Soldats will never be really over.


I don’t mean that there will be no more killing. I mean they would no longer kill the people that others’ want them to kill. If they had to kill, it would be in defence or defiance of whatever plans the Soldats has for them. Yes, if they go against the Soldats it may not seem dissimilar to Altena’s final plans of using Noir to rid the Soldats of corruption. But as I said, they are now guided by their own will, by their loyalty exclusive to each other. They live as they see fit. Under Altena’s plans, there would not be that freedom.
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:37 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
Maybe there was a certain element of coercion inviolved, but I don't think Soldats would be able to pick a totally innocent family at random and order them to become the leaders of the Corsican mafia.

I never denied that they always had been a leading family of Corsican mafia as Soldats contacted them. I see it as decision: "If you can't defeat your enemies, get their ally". And for sure Corsican mafia never could win against Soldats.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:46 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
That it's the only explanation she gives Mireille doesn't prove it's the only reason she has. But even if it was, so what? She still wants to be Mireille's friend.


Can you prove that she had other reaons? I don't think so Smile

FacelessMinion wrote:
That is what you claim, but you have not a shred of proof for this except that you want to believe it and refuse to see evidence to the contrary. So you still have not shown that I am wrong Smile


Chloe told Kirika two times that she hates Mireille - Prove enough? Please, faceless - take it like a man - you are wrong, definitely Wink
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:23 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Kamui wrote:
Chloe told Kirika two times that she hates Mireille - Prove enough? Please, faceless - take it like a man - you are wrong, definitely

As I have already demonstrated earlier in this thread, the German translation is completely wrong. The proof you speak of does not exist. I even posted the original Japanese script so you could verify for yourself that I'm telling the truth. We can't debate seriously if you want to use errors in the German translation as arguments. And you can beg me as much as you like, but I can't change the facts...

Or perhaps you are joking?
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Kamui
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:34 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
If I'd have bought Noir Vol. 8 on DVD already I'd watch episode 25 again now because I don't believe you - it wouldn't make sense, after all - I disagree with you as long as I haven't got Vol. 8 to prove it myself Smile
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:01 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
You seriously think that I may be lying about the script for some of the most crucial lines in Noir, here on a Noir forum?!? You think I would knowingly misrepresent Chloe's last words? Confused
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Kamui
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:08 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
You think I would knowingly misrepresent Chloe's last words? Confused


Look, I just can't prove it, so I have to trust the german dub - if you're telling the truth, I'll apologise to you, but I don't believe your words right now, because it doesn't make sense if Chloe really liked Mireille as a person - it would destroy a little, but amusing part of the story - beside, if it's true it still wouldn't fit at all - when I think about Chloe's acting when Mireille was near - no....Smile
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noirci
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:01 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
I just quickly caught up to the last 2 pages of 'discussion' that I missed. Wow... If the many layers of meaning and interpretation within Noir that was originally intended by the creators wasn't enough, you're also adding in the meanings of the changes in the German dub?? While you're at it, what about the French dub? Or the Russian dub? Or maybe even the Chinese or Korean dub?? Very Happy

Or, why don't we all learn to understand Japanese and figure out what it all means relative to the exact Japanese words? Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:35 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
And just to add in my can o'worms...

I don't think the Bouquets were necessarily wonderful members of society. Mireille has always recognized that they were a mob-like family that had power over the Corsican underworld. This wasn't really a big deal to her, since in the show, she worked within the underworld herself. Her shocking discovery was only that they were loyal to the Soldats.

M/K/C were, as far as I can tell, the first ones to be selected for Noir in a long time. The Soldats pretty much swept the Noir part of their philosophies under the rug, and was happy to leave it there until Altena showed up. So when the Bouquets swore loyalty to the Soldats, I don't think it crossed their minds that they would be asked to give up their daughter.

I think Altena believed she loved both Chloe and Kirika, and as well to a certain extent, Mireille. But "loved" in the same vain as the 'saplings' reference. Such as how a gardener would tend to her plants to raise the right variant, that they were seeds that she would nurture to grow to be what she wants them to be. If they don't grow the way she wants them to, they are of no use to her and are eliminated.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:51 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
noirci wrote:
Her shocking discovery was only that they were loyal to the Soldats.

Or rather, disloyal to the Soldats Wink
Quote:
So when the Bouquets swore loyalty to the Soldats, I don't think it crossed their minds that they would be asked to give up their daughter.

Always read the fine print! Laughing But didn't the guy in episode 2 say they dealt with Noir "in the seventies"? Obviously it would not be a grand retour if they had Noirs all the time, but perhaps they were trying and failing all the time to recreate Noir?

But now I'm wondering, what *exactly* were they so opposed against? It is made fairly clear that a majority of Soldats members can expect some day to get a gun and orders to go kill something. Since Claude presumably taught Mireille while not being much older than her, it seems that (1) assassin skills were not uncommon in the family, and (2) it isn't as if Soldats wanted to completely tear Mireille away from her family. So what WAS the objection exactly? That it's not proper for a GIRL to do such work? Or they were homophobes and objected to their girl having such a close bond to another girl? Or could they have realised that Noir was essentially a scapegoat?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:10 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
Or rather, disloyal to the Soldats Wink


That was Mireille's personal reconciliation of her parents later on: That although they were Soldat loyalists, their love of their daughter was their priority.

Quote:
But didn't the guy in episode 2 say they dealt with Noir "in the seventies"?


There has always been Noirs in the past... Assassins for hire using the name for automatic recognition. But there hasn't been the "2 maidens" Noir of the Soldats for a long time. This is what I gathered from the conversations between the male Soldat heads.

As well, I don't believe the 'True' Noir of the Soldats would ever be for hire.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:34 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
But now I'm wondering, what *exactly* were they so opposed against? It is made fairly clear that a majority of Soldats members can expect some day to get a gun and orders to go kill something. Since Claude presumably taught Mireille while not being much older than her, it seems that (1) assassin skills were not uncommon in the family, and (2) it isn't as if Soldats wanted to completely tear Mireille away from her family. So what WAS the objection exactly? That it's not proper for a GIRL to do such work? Or they were homophobes and objected to their girl having such a close bond to another girl? Or could they have realised that Noir was essentially a scapegoat?


The Bouquets probably realized what sort of things they may have wanted to do to her, which was much more extensive than your typical henchman training. See what Mireille said to Breffort. Her parents didn't want their daughter to have her soul denied from her, to be demoralized beyond recognition. To live in such darkness that you wonder who you really are. AKA what it seems like they did to Kirika.

As well, of course she could have been completely torn away from her family. It was entirely possible. Look at what they've done to Kirika and Chloe. The only reason she still had memory and fondness for her parents was that she was chosen as the sapling who would face the least level of brainwashing and lifelong manipulation.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:24 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Still, the difference with regular henchman training was probably one of degree rather than essence. I think all those poor guys and nuns our girls kill are so dedicated because they learned by experience that Soldats' punishment can be worse than death.

Being separated from her parents was a possibility, but they must have known their futile refusal made it a certainty...What were they hoping to achieve? Were they stupid enough to believe that their disloyalty would go unpunished? They didn't "save" Mireille by it, and sacrificed her brother for nothing. This part is hard to understand...
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:12 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
I think the decision not ot give Mireille to the manor has to do with with the different opinons of Odette Bouquet and Altena. "Certainly love can kill, but hatred never can save lives. Never!" against "If one can kill for love. hatred possibly can save lives." They didn't want Mireille to grow up with hatred. Odette is possibly the driving force behind the decision. She must not have a criminal background from her family side, and she seemed to be a really warm hearted person.

Quote:
Were they stupid enough to believe that their disloyalty would go unpunished?

Not at all. Because of the talks between Altena, Marenn and Borne I have the impression that Altena hadn't much power in the beginning. Her power raised with the use of the saplings to eleminate her enemies. We know there is a strong resistance inside Soldats against Altena, especially in the leadership. So the Bouquets hadn't necessarly to expect punishment. In one of the flashbacks we can see Odette and Laurent Bouqet sit at the table. Laurent Bouqet is staring at the pocket watch. It doesn't look as if he wanted to read the time. It looks as if he is bothering on the question if they made the right decision. So they had been aware of possible consequences, but decided to risk it.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:33 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
^^ What he said.

Also, I think Laurent was against it as well, not just Odette. There were several references made by people who knew the parents that Mireille was "definitely Laurent Bouquet's daughter alright." So it seemed that Laurent was that kind of person too.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
noirci wrote:
There were several references made by people who knew the parents that Mireille was "definitely Laurent Bouquet's daughter alright." So it seemed that Laurent was that kind of person too.

Proud, selfish and impulsive? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:48 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
That with finding another killer isn't the point. Would you do anything, because if you wouldn't do it another one would? For sure not. And I said she is a force for revenge or vendetta, not for justice. Revenge is one of the worst things, it normaly leads to a never ending spiral of violence. And I think it's possibly unconsciuos, so she can't do anything against it.

OK. I thought you were implying Mireille thinks she is fighting for a noble cause or something. I think she is not that stupid.
Quote:
So it is for her (and me also) no betrayal, especially since it was open opposition, only a decision between having might and power or the love to their daughter. And they decided for her.

I'm not saying they were wrong to try to save Mireille. But they should never have gotten involved with Soldats in the first place. It looks to me as if they were happy to benefit from Soldats, but when the debt was called in, they tried to go back on their word. Depending on how you look at it, they gave up their "honour" either when they first swore loyalty to Soldats in exchange for power, or when they refused to honour their side of the bargain. After you've dishonoured yourself, you can't invoke your honour anymore as a justification for revenge.
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Kamui
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Vienna, Austria
	
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:02 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
If Altena wanted to kill Kirika, why she feels sad as the shot hits Kirika? And what is proved? That she wants to raise new sapilngs? Where can I find it? Or do you mean with Mireille? With Mireille she tells both, that she is choosen and that she isn't needed. Altena doesn't tell the truth at all.


The fact, that Althena never saw Mireille as a Noir-candidate is proved. She mentioned it often enough.

We don't know if Althena told the truth or not - so you must agree with me, after all, because you can't be sure about it yourself Wink

I think Althena knew that the execution of Grand Retour was impossible without Chloe. So she planned to kill the 'old' saplings to raise a new generation of Noir-candidates. Where can she find them - well, she also found Mireille, Kirika and Chloe - so it won't be that difficult to find three more kids for the trials - Les Soldats surely got enough members which have families, so....Smile

FallenAngel wrote:
Hah? You say it by yourself. All their targets had been murderer, killler. and so on and would continue killing if K & M hadn't stopped them (except Nazarov).


Alright - so this fact wipes out all the other things in their lifes, I suppose - maybe they just became killers because they had learned nothing else (the knights of paris would fit this category) or because they didn't find another job/a job which is payed only half that good. Can you blame them for their decission? So Noir aren't innocent - they killed people which didn't live for murder, like they still do. People with families, friends and others who could be sad because of their death.

Of course, I agree with you - they had the choice - and became killers in order of it. So it's their own fault, they knew about the risks. But Mireille and Kirika aren't as innocent as you seem to see them. They killed much more people which weren't involved in their story as they could ever save. So you were wrong.

FallenAngel wrote:
That's exact the point. Before the first encounter Mireille is already that much freightened: "I can't win against her". Not a good attitude. With this attitude you have already lost, but she goes after her. She can't shot Intoccabile and is still freightened (I think more than before). But she decides to follow her to Sicily. And Kirika feels the same like me:"Going to Sicily is dangerous. Is it as if you...". Guess how the sentence would finish:"...want to die."


Mireille is a very confident woman. She knew that she couldn't fight against Silvana, but then she pushed herself to do it because it had to be done. Silvana knew who Noir was - so she had to get finished off. That's why Mireille wanted to confront her at sicilia. She knew about the risks, but she also knew what it'd be like if they continue to work as assassins and the leader of the Cosa Nostra knows their faces....

FallenAngel wrote:
Not love for them - but love for Altena.


FOR ALTHENA? Sorry, but that's nonsense, really. Kirika never was as fanatic as Chloe - she didn't love Althena - she was just brainwashed by her - she was in her - as you might call it - 'Dark-Kirika-state' - she wasn't conscious about what she was doing.

FallenAngel wrote:
That's why you think the "two assassins go around and kill people" story is that what Noir is.


I never said that the assassination-story is all what Noir is. It's just the most important element, next to the corsican-hit-thing. That's it Smile

Last edited by Kamui on Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:12 pm; edited 3 times in total
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 987
Location: don't ask me I only work here
	
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:09 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
FacelessMinion wrote:

Quote:
They must not do acrobatics to get satisfaction.

Don't give me strange ideas like that Laughing

I always forgot to ask while posting: for one of your brilliant fanarts? I hope so Very Happy

I'm supposed to finish painting my ceiling, yet I'm drawing Noir fanart instead because people here keep giving me ideas Confused
Quote:
For me she cares for Kirikas feelings from the beginning. The first times it isn't that strong to see, and sometimes it is a little bit rude, especially if she tries to distract Kirika from depressive thoughts. And the times, we see her hurt Kirika, she is hurt herself.

I don't disagree that this is possible, and that maybe Mireille is just trying very hard to deny her true feelings during the early episodes. When I said Mireille doesn't care for Kirika in the early episodes, it was in the context of making another point (that Mireille's character development is based on Kirika's company, and not on some Soldats revelation - and that Kirika could have the same effect on Chloe), it does not reflect an absolute and unchangeable opinion on the matter of Mireille's initial feelings about Kirika.

For that matter, I always thought it was likely that, after her parents were killed, Mireille would have been taken to the Manor, where she would have met Altena and the other saplings. She probably doesn't remember (a common complaint with saplings), but I don't think they are really total strangers when we see them meet in the series. Perhaps she even gave her father's watch to Kirika as she left the Manor...
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Sprite Revenchatte
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Location: Les Deux Vierges Tea House and Bakery, somewhere on the outskirts of Manchester, UK
	
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:27 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
I'm supposed to finish painting my ceiling, yet I'm drawing Noir fanart instead because people here keep giving me ideas Confused


Paint the Noir fanart... ON your ceiling? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:00 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Sprite Revenchatte wrote:
Paint the Noir fanart... ON your ceiling?

Then how could I share it with you? Rolling Eyes And I would still need to complete the base coat first... And even that is so unpleasant that putting art on the ceiling seems a bit too masochistic. Neck cramps, paint dripping on you... If Michaelangelo wasn't crazy before he painted that chapel, he surely must have been afterwards, I think...

Or imagine I get constant visits by crazed fangirls who want to "look at my ceilings" Shocked
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:36 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Kamui wrote:
The fact, that Althena never saw Mireille as a Noir-candidate is proved.

And why she tell Chloe in ep. 20:"You should know it as well. The young woman from Corsica is also qualified." As I said - she says both, like she needs it.
Kamui wrote:
FOR ALTHENA? Sorry, but that's nonsense, really. Kirika never was as fanatic as Chloe - she didn't love Althena - she was just brainwashed by her - she was in her - as you might call it - 'Dark-Kirika-state' - she wasn't conscious about what she was doing.

Why not?. I'm speaking about Kirika as child - for example at Corsican hit. It's a fact that Altena loves Kirika. We can see her sadness as she hits Kirika instead Mireille in ep. 26. We can see it in ep. 25, as she embraces Kirika and Chloe, she looks at Kirika - and I wonder that she doesn't kiss her hair. Altenas look after Chloe told her that's she's happy to be loved from Altena says much what she thinks about her. In ep. 24, as Kirika looks at the Langonel manuscript, the picture with the two maiden and the kind mother - Kirika starts smiling. As Altena moves in and Kirika starts quoting - Altenas eyes fill with tears for a moment. And later, after Altena wished her good night and walks out, Kirika sits up and says: "Wait Altena" it isn't dark Kirika - it's normal Kirika. So I think she remembered unconscious that she had received motherly love from Altena as child. And earlier in ep. 24 the music prooves that Altena loves Kirika - as they talk about Kirikas past plays an instrumental version of "Secret Game". So what you think, if Kirika has got as child so much love from Altena - she hadn't loved her too?
FacelessMinion wrote:
For that matter, I always thought it was likely that, after her parents were killed, Mireille would have been taken to the Manor, where she would have met Altena and the other saplings. She probably doesn't remember (a common complaint with saplings), but I don't think they are really total strangers when we see them meet in the series. Perhaps she even gave her father's watch to Kirika as she left the Manor...

Possible, especially since Altena says to Mirelle "We don't meet the first time". For the watch I found for myself another explaination. I think it was a gift for all parents of the saplings as they got blessed, so is the watch we see the one from Kirikas parents.

Meanwhile I know why I'm thinking that strong that Chloe always wanted get rid of Mireille. German dub possibly implies that much stronger. For example in ep.25, after Kirika saved Mireille.
Chloe:"Why have you done this?"
Chloe:"Answer me!"
Chloe:"YOU LIAR"
Kirika;"Stop it, Chloe, stop it!"
Kirika:"Please"
Chloe:"Tell me, why you have protected her?"
Chloe:"I hate her!"
Chloe:"I hate her!"
Chloe:"I'm your friend now!"
Chloe:"We belong together!"
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:08 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
I'm sorry but if the German dubbers add weird meanings that are not in the original, then I do not consider these added meanings to be "truth". Your opinion may be different...

Here is what Chloe says in the original version. From my limited understanding, it is much like the fansub script says, and there is no mention of Chloe hating Mireille (for those without language capable browser, there is Japanese text here below):

「どうして………………どうしてッ！？」
why? why?

「嘘つきィッ！！」
liar!

「パリで暮らすなたとミレイユは、とても、とても…ッわたしだったのに！わたしのはずだった！！」
In Paris living together, you and Mireille, absolutely, absolutely... should have been me! it should have been me!

「……………………ノワール…………」
noir...
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FallenAngel
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:44 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
I'm sorry but if the German dubbers add weird meanings that are not in the original, then I do not consider these added meanings to be "truth".

I know that, that's only the dub, the German subtitles are closer to the fansub (as I posted elsewhere, I think that are exact translations). But I have seen the dubbed version several times - so it's not easy to ignore it. And at the other side, as much as I dislike the changes inside the most episodes, some changes of the last episodes I like, because they are more emotional. For example Kirika, breaking down after pointing weapon at Altena in ep.24. In Original she's quoting Langonel manuscript. In German dub she says (man refered as human being):
"Man lives amongst men"
"he searches eternaly for love"
"and what he finds is the sin"
It makes her somehow more despaired.

FacelessMinion wrote:
But they should never have gotten involved with Soldats in the first place.

We don't know how it happened. Maybe they had only the choice to cooperate or to be replaced by Soldats loyals?

And one example for my opinion, that Mireille cared from the beginning for Kirikas feelings is in ep.1, as she gives her time to say farewell to the school and her current live. And I can find things like this in many episodes.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:32 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
FacelessMinion wrote:
But they should never have gotten involved with Soldats in the first place.

We don't know how it happened. Maybe they had only the choice to cooperate or to be replaced by Soldats loyals?

Maybe there was a certain element of coercion inviolved, but I don't think Soldats would be able to pick a totally innocent family at random and order them to become the leaders of the Corsican mafia. Even then, they could have tried other things (run away) instead of going partially along with it.

It is tempting to think of the Bouquets as good guys, but in the context of Noir I think it is more realistic to assume that they were just regular powerhungry mafia scumbags. It seems to make more sense, if you need children that are to be steeped in sins, to look for them in really evil crooked families. That should give them a head start, so to speak. It's not as if Soldats would be lacking such families.
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Kamui
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:03 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
And why she tell Chloe in ep. 20:"You should know it as well. The young woman from Corsica is also qualified." As I said - she says both, like she needs it.


Mireille is qualified, no doubt about it - but that mustn't actually mean that Althena accepts her as a candidate for True Noir. She mentioned it at least three or four times - so it's proved, I guess.

FallenAngel wrote:
It's a fact that Altena loves Kirika.


Really? Prove it Smile

We don't even know for sure if Althena loved Chloe after all - and Chloe spent nearly her entire life at the manor, together with her. I have my doubts about your words....

FallenAngel wrote:
We can see her sadness as she hits Kirika instead Mireille in ep. 26.


Sadness? Erm - she was just surprised - she wasn't conscious about that the thread which binds Mireille and Kirika together is that strong. Althena included almost every possible situation in her plan - but she didn't expect this reaction. You can see it clearly - Althena thought that Kirika felt honoured about being a True Noir - just like Chloe - but her obsessions were different - friendship over fate - there wasn't any sadness at all in her the way she acted - she was totally shocked because of the development of things - that's it.

FallenAngel wrote:
In ep. 24, as Kirika looks at the Langonel manuscript, the picture with the two maiden and the kind mother - Kirika starts smiling. As Altena moves in and Kirika starts quoting - Altenas eyes fill with tears for a moment.


Althena was just happy because Kirika was so easy to manipulate - even after the time she spent with Mireille.

FallenAngel wrote:
For the watch I found for myself another explaination. I think it was a gift for all parents of the saplings as they got blessed, so is the watch we see the one from Kirikas parents.


I almost agree with you, but there's one thing you didn't mention - all Soldats do have such a watch - not only the parents of the Noir-candidates. But you're right, that was also my point of view about the watch.

FallenAngel wrote:
Meanwhile I know why I'm thinking that strong that Chloe always wanted get rid of Mireille. German dub possibly implies that much stronger. For example in ep.25, after Kirika saved Mireille.
Chloe:"Why have you done this?"
Chloe:"Answer me!"
Chloe:"YOU LIAR"
Kirika;"Stop it, Chloe, stop it!"
Kirika:"Please"
Chloe:"Tell me, why you have protected her?"
Chloe:"I hate her!"
Chloe:"I hate her!"
Chloe:"I'm your friend now!"
Chloe:"We belong together!"


I always agreed with you about Chloe's hate for Mireille - there are plenty of scenes and dialogs in the series which proves it Smile
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:57 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Kamui wrote:
I always agreed with you about Chloe's hate for Mireille - there are plenty of scenes and dialogs in the series which proves it Smile

Chloe says in episode 17 that she wants to be Mireille's friend. She says she is sure that they can be friends. That proves that she doesn't hate Mireille and that you are completely wrong! Wink So I assume this is now proven and that you must agree with me (unless all your friends hate you?) Laughing
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Kamui
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:38 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
Chloe says in episode 17 that she wants to be Mireille's friend. She says she is sure that they can be friends. That proves that she doesn't hate Mireille and that you are completely wrong! Wink


Erm - not really.

The only reason she said that she wants to become Mireille's friend is because Mireille is Kirika's friend - Chloe even told her about this fact when they meet at the Bouquet residence - so I'm afraid you are wrong Smile
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:22 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Kamui wrote:
The only reason she said that she wants to become Mireille's friend is because Mireille is Kirika's friend - Chloe even told her about this fact when they meet at the Bouquet residence

That is untrue. She doesn't say that is the only reason. Have you never met a friend's friend and felt you would like to be friends with the friend too? Anyway it is impossible to be friends with somebody you hate, for whatever reason, so I'm afraid I am still completely right Smile
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Kamui
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:24 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
She doesn't say that is the only reason.


In german dub, she does Wink

Quote:

Chloe: 'Ich will, dass wir beide Freunde werden.' - 'I want you and me to become friends.'
Mireille: 'Freunde?' - 'Friends?'
Chloe: 'Weil du ihre Freundin bist, verstehst du?' - 'Because you're her friend, do you understand what that means?'

That's all she told Mireille - so? Rolling Eyes

FacelessMinion wrote:
Have you never met a friend's friend and felt you would like to be friends with the friend too?


That may fit many cases, but not this one.

FacelessMinion wrote:
Anyway it is impossible to be friends with somebody you hate, for whatever reason, so I'm afraid I am still completely right Smile


Are you sure?

Mireille's friendship never had a meaning to Chloe, so it doesn't matter if Chloe loves or hates Mireille for requesting her friendship, after all.

You're still wrong, faceless Smile
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:18 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Kamui wrote:
FacelessMinion wrote:
She doesn't say that is the only reason.

That's all she told Mireille - so? Rolling Eyes

That it's the only explanation she gives Mireille doesn't prove it's the only reason she has. But even if it was, so what? She still wants to be Mireille's friend. Rolling Eyes
Quote:
Mireille's friendship never had a meaning to Chloe, so it doesn't matter if Chloe loves or hates Mireille for requesting her friendship, after all.

That is what you claim, but you have not a shred of proof for this except that you want to believe it and refuse to see evidence to the contrary. So you still have not shown that I am wrong Smile

(this was fun, but I'll stop writing like Kamui now Wink )
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bugs/mistakes in Noir
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Section_8
Heartless Assassin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 354
Location: Canada?
	
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:19 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
The other thing is in ep.22, after awakaning in Soldats Village. She handles the gun with left hand. I have no clue why, beacuse she's normally right handed.


Ambidexterity (or at least the ability to shoot with your off-hand when unprepared) is a good thing for any assassin to have.

Maybe Dark Kirika's a lefty?

Or are you talking about how she picks it up immediately after waking up? Might've had something to do with the way the cylinder was hinged. She might've been so out of it that she decided to switch hands. Ooooh! Ooh! I know! she was originally _trained_ to shoot left-handed, and the right-handed thing is part of her whole repressed-memory/hypnotism/brainwashing/she's-actually-just-pulling-a-fast-one-on-Mireille thing!

Or it was a bug in the holodeck program (see Star Trek: the Next Generation episode "Ship in a Bottle").

If ya reaaaly wanna get symbolic, her sudden switch to the left hand could tie into her headlong plunge into Dark Kirika.
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often.

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes?

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad?
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Sprite Revenchatte
Kind Mother


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:18 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
I think everyone's forgetting that she spent the time between eps 8 and 9 training to shoot lefty after she got shot in the arm....
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Nightwish
Dev0ted S0ldat


Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 75
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:30 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
I'm not forgotten that. I agree with you. But it still goes like natural... I mean, if you haven't used your both hands, often left hand is weaker than right hand...
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Kamui
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:08 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Section_8 wrote:
Maybe Dark Kirika's a lefty?

Or are you talking about how she picks it up immediately after waking up? Might've had something to do with the way the cylinder was hinged. She might've been so out of it that she decided to switch hands. Ooooh! Ooh! I know! she was originally _trained_ to shoot left-handed, and the right-handed thing is part of her whole repressed-memory/hypnotism/brainwashing/she's-actually-just-pulling-a-fast-one-on-Mireille thing!

Or it was a bug in the holodeck program (see Star Trek: the Next Generation episode "Ship in a Bottle").

If ya reaaaly wanna get symbolic, her sudden switch to the left hand could tie into her headlong plunge into Dark Kirika.


erm - I think the explaination for this is a lil' easier - she simply wanted to grab her gun, because she didn't know where she was and she wanted to be ready to fight, if she would have to - but well, maybe it is a bug in the holodeck program, maybe Chloe is an alien, we'll never know Laughing
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FallenAngel
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:45 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
These things I have from a German website:
- in ep.1 at Mireilles computer screen is written: "Wellcome to Web"
- between ep. 2 and 11 the number of postboxes and which belongs Mireille differs. Ep.2: 10 postboxes, Mireilles: fith box upper row. Ep. 11: 8 postboxes, Mireilles: third box upper row.
- The pocket watch seems to time warp. As Kirika opens the watch first time in front of construction site, it's later than the second time at the steel bar.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:19 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Another bug, or at least annoyance, is in episode 25 at the beginning, the music "church" is played, which has a male choir, but the scene shows only nuns. A female choir would have been more appropriate...
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
In ep.5 at the bottle whiskey with the message is written "DIBTILLED".

I'v tried to read the tombstone in ep.3, to find out if there may be a gag, but it seem to make no sense. It has for sure some orthographic mistakes, but it seem to be a mix of French, English and possibly "Frenched" English (English words with accent signs). I always wonder, many things are done with so much accuracy, and sometimes it's really sloppy.

And for the thing with the left hand I apologize, I remembered only the less succesful trials in ep.9, but she must have continued with training. In sewer shooting at ep. 10 we see excellent shots from Kirika with the left hand.
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Section_8
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:25 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
As I recall, there was spelling mistake on Rosalie Hammond's bio. This was of the old "is it 'r' or 'l'" kind.
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often.

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes?

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad?
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:34 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
The misspelling in Rosalys bio I found is that they write "hight school"
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Bulmafox
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:12 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
Another bug, or at least annoyance, is in episode 25 at the beginning, the music "church" is played, which has a male choir, but the scene shows only nuns. A female choir would have been more appropriate...


Soldats' *other* job! Razz
.
.
.
Wait a minute, are you talking about when it shows the two statues at the beginning of every episode? If not, then never mind.
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Am I supposed to just walk up to someone and say 'Hello. My name's Kirika. I kill people in my spare time'?
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:25 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Bulmafox wrote:
Wait a minute, are you talking about when it shows the two statues at the beginning of every episode? If not, then never mind.

No, I mean when the nuns walk in procession through the candle-lit corridor. It sounds really weird in that context (or these are very strange "nuns" indeed).

Another possible bug, I should check again actually, but I think the pocketwatch changes size dramatically between shots a few times.
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:16 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
In ep. 6 at the market place where Kirika sits at the bench with Myshkin and talks to Nazarov, there are trees (not only conifers) and bushs with green leaves, even it is winter. And the plants in the pots should also stay in greenhouse instead outside.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
In ep. 7 as Mireille intrudes in the terrorists headquarter is in the background a flag straight in the wind. It doesn't move.

The next thing I'm not sure if I should count it as bug or as evidence that M & K had seen each other at the corsican hit. It's Kirikas flashback in ep. 25. Why she sees Mireille walking towards and opening the door? If she had seen Mireille opening the door and stepping out it's her imagination of what happened - otherwise it's a bug.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:46 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
In Intoccabile I during the first "bed scene" Mirelle leaves the bed to the left as if there is some space between the beds. But in the second scene we can see that the beds stand side by side. (Btw, Mirelle isn't naked at all in this scene. She wears the sama payama as in the first scene. It's not easy to see, but there is a strap on her shoulder, look here: http://home.tiscali.de/jhtdata/Mireille_Int.jpg)

And there is something a little bit incorrect. The Mafia saints call Sylvana Lady Sylvana. I think they should call her Donna Sylvana, like Don Lucio or Don Salvatore.

Another weird thing: Why to hell is Mireille cutting Kirikas hair? I think cutting Kirikas hair by a professional hairmaker wouldn't be that expensive like Mireilles own visits at the hairmaker. Very Happy
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Section_8
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:01 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
In ep. 7 as Mireille intrudes in the terrorists headquarter is in the background a flag straight in the wind. It doesn't move.


Well, if we're going to pick on matte paintings, I suppose you should point out that the patrons in that tea house in Season of Hell are very, very still.

Quote:
It's Kirikas flashback in ep. 25. Why she sees Mireille walking towards and opening the door? If she had seen Mireille opening the door and stepping out it's her imagination of what happened - otherwise it's a bug.


OR...

a> a clever use of the "they're so in synch they can see through each other's eyes" thing
b> it's called, "continuity-establishing shot," dork.

Quote:
Another weird thing: Why to hell is Mireille cutting Kirikas hair? I think cutting Kirikas hair by a professional hairmaker wouldn't be that expensive like Mireilles own visits at the hairmaker.


According to Tibbetheus T. Orchid, they actually did take Kirika to Bob's Shave 'n a Haircut (Two Pence) place once.

Bob: What'll it be, m'lady?
Kirika: *incredibly shy* Just...a...trim...
Bob: 'Kay. *starts up razor and move towards her*
Kirika: *twitches* Razor...sharp...cutting...hurting...bleeding...blood...murder..slash..maiminjurkillkillKillKILL AAIIIIEEEAAARGH!
*wet noises*
Kirika: "*pants*"
Mireille: ...so, that's $3.98 for the home-haircutter's kit, yes?
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noirci
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:23 pm    Post subject: My 2 francs... 	Reply with quote
I am sure that many reviews and opinions of Noir have been written in the 3 years since its release. But since I can’t look back at 3 years’ worth of reviews, I’ll write a spoiler-filled review of my thoughts on the finer points of the series anyway, and a bit of general response to some opinions I have read. Even though some of what I said has probably already been spoken, oh well.

I’m quite the latecomer, of course. I only finished watching Noir but weeks ago. I loved it. I’m generally not much of an anime fan, but I loved this one. Came across it by accident only because my brother was watching it. After all, what a wonderful relationship story this has become. There was the entire charade with the Soldats, but it all seems insignificant compared with all the character development we get to see.

As for the romance subtext between Mireille and Kirika, I’m with the camp that believes it is definitely real as far as the creators are concerned. Specifically, I believe the romance was brewing very slowly underneath their emotionless outward expressions since about the middle of the series. Then the characters realized it themselves since the last 4 episodes, although due to the circumstances they couldn’t actually vocalize it to each other. The clues for romance are definitely there, one just has to decide for themselves whether they choose to see it. This is a series where you have to see into the layers past what is actually showing, and the romance aspect is probably the most suggestive. Although it is hidden, there always seems to be a bunch of invisible arrows behind the screen pointing towards it. The much-praised music has much to do with it, evoking ideas of true love, love of my life, lost love, (hmm, I see a pattern) that is deep within the characters’ hearts and it’s highly doubtful that all the lyrics and the timing of when the music plays are only coincidence. I can only imagine how much more indicative the music is for the Japanese viewer, as so many of the songs are in their native language as they’re watching it, unlike myself who has to look it up afterwards.

What M&K have is not your run-in-the-mill coupling of convenience either. This incredible relationship, romantic or not, blossoms from some of the most difficult situations possible. It thrives in spite of what they know of themselves, in spite of their basic unsentimental personalities, in spite of death, hate, pre-destiny, and acts of the unforgivable. It thrives not because of pre-programmed or physical attraction, but from sacrifice, from personal growth, from seeing what is true and what is false.

I don’t believe M&K are really true “lesbians”, specifically. They are 2 individuals who, under very extraordinary circumstances, have found a connection and a very deep and meaningful bond with each other. Being of the same gender is probably only an issue to the extent that they and the viewers probably won’t automatically predict a relationship between them as an obvious extension of their struggles as the story progresses. Imagine if the story was of a man and a woman. Right away after 10 minutes of the show, I would be saying without hesitation, “Oh yeah, they’ll be gettin’ it on.” Instead, with M&K, I only see the romance as it is emerging, because of the situations at hand and the emotions we see them struggle through.

(As a side note, as gross as it may sound, I have a feeling that the creators did intend for there to be a faint hint of attraction between Mireille and her uncle. The voice acting for Mireille at the times before she finds out he’s loyal to the Soldats seems to change here. The way she speaks with him on the phone, the way she looks at the card on the flowers, seems to suggest a teenage girl response when the school’s cutest guy has just asked her to the dance. The way the uncle is drawn as well is not very uncle-ish, but drawn and animated more like a type of anime guy who often attracts the girls. Another point is that the dialog specifically points out that he’s her uncle from her mother’s side. I’m not sure about Japan, but I have heard about some Asian traditions that allow for incestual relationships as long as it’s family on your mother’s side, not your fathers. Reason being that the father’s side family is your “true” relatives and your mom only marries “into” that family. [I know Mireille and her uncle are not Japanese, but the show is made originally for a Japanese audience.] If this hint is true, then it further shows that Mireille’s relationship that later develops with Kirika is unlikely derived from any intrinsic attraction to girls in particular. I’m interested to know if this has ever been discussed before…)

I believe Mireille’s hidden feelings or affections for Kirika slowly emerges after Kirika leaves for the manor, but before the famous letter. There was definitely a feeling of loss and loneliness conveyed just by showing her shopping, eating, moving around with that single-seat scooter of hers. She repeats afterwards that she will kill Kirika, but it seems like she’s trying desperately to will herself to want to do it, despite the overriding emotions she would not acknowledge.

The Letter written by Kirika for Mireille was in my mind, and obviously as well as in many others’, fully laden with extraordinary meaning. Kirika seems to gush at Mireille, revealing emotions she has secretly held but can’t fully describe. The letter not only conveys a deep affection, but also demonstrates the true nature of M&K’s relationship up to this point. In the beginning, there was a palpable emotional distance between the two, a distance necessitated by circumstance and the unknown. But despite the imposed self-protection, a connection between them was established anyway, whether they were mindfully aware of it or not. We know by the letter that Kirika feels it already, but we now know it has surfaced in Mireille as well. We know because of her response to Graipaul in the next scene, where he asks her whether she’s willing to fight the world alone. Her response was, “Not necessarily… alone.” …I was almost giving the TV a standing ovation at this point. Right in that telling line, we then know that not only has she abandoned the ridiculous promise to kill Kirika, but also that she might even want to live a life with her. Kirika may never be able to atone, but she is forgiven, and by the one who matters to her most.

It seems there are some who dislike Mireille’s characterization because of her attitudes towards Kirika for most of the series. I myself thought Mireille’s responses to Kirika at times went beyond insensitivity. However, one should realize it was fully intended for Mireille to have long established this huge wall of ice around her heart to avoid emotional attachment to people she meets to protect herself, as required by the profession. This wall is initially much more likely to hold fort against somebody like Kirika, whom she does not fully understand, and whom she promises to kill later on. The creators set up this ice wall so that Kirika, as the series progresses, can remove that glacier slowly, piece by piece, though she wasn’t aware she was doing so. Enough of it was removed to prevent Mireille to pull the trigger when she was asked to, despite what they then knew. Then at once, the whole glacier tumbles down and melts after Mireille reads the letter, the letter that showed Kirika’s heart, that revealed what Mireille meant to Kirika, and made Mireille realize what Kirika meant to her. If Mireille has been kind and caring right from the beginning, it would have made her transition and her acts in the end to be much less compelling.

We discover ultimately that Mireille and Kirika are not very different people at all, despite obvious background and behavioral differences. Both are lost in a sense, detached from the world of normalcy, each lonely in their own way, trying to find their identity, and their purpose. And they eventually do find their lives are enriched by having someone there that understands them and who will be there for them.

Further along this topic, I prefer to believe there wasn’t any between-the-sheets action for M&K within the series’ timeframe, despite what evidence some have suggested to the contrary. I don’t think they would be emotionally open enough to ever initiate that indulgence within the episodes’ time. If there is to be physical intimacy between them, it would be after they’ve returned from the manor, preferably after they’ve revealed in spoken word to each other of their feelings, and of course, after Kirika heals up enough to get her flexibility back. If anything did occur before that, it would seem more like they’re only satisfying their fleeting lust and would only cheapen the meaning of the sex afterwards. After overcoming the hell and discovery of those few days, only surviving because of their devotion for each other, it is more believable that they would fall in love, allowing the fact they’re both girls to be pretty much a non-issue. This would be true for Mireille especially. Also, it is because of the show’s conclusion that the passion they would later share is magnified with the new knowledge of where they place in each others’ hearts, and knowing that they will be each other’s guide and support from then on as they face the world together.

What surprised me a bit while reading some responses about the show, was that some people would be content with, or even prefer, if it had been a Chloe/Kirika pairing as the conclusion. I can understand the facination with Chloe’s character. She is a dark, mysterious, skilled, character with a lot of character depth, genuine heart and child-like undertones. She’s ultimately a misguided individual, having lived a path of lies placed by Altena, the motherly figure she trusted more than anyone. The tragedies pile up in the end, as her place in Noir was a lie; her believed destiny with Kirika a pretense. She felt she was compelled to attack Mireille out of desperation, and died believing Kirika lied to her and betrayed her. She has definitely captured my sympathies. However, and this is not Chloe’s fault, her attachment for Kirika was all for the wrong reasons. Do not forget her admiration started as a child when she watched a very young Kirika slaughter down a family. She seemed to have been led to believe the “dark” Kirika is the real Kirika. Chloe wanted to be with Kirika insomuch as to fulfill the Grand Retour and Altena’s vision, which we of course know is not what Kirika would ever want for herself as long as her mind is clear. Chloe has been manipulated to the point of no return by Altena’s twisted game. And her fate, though very sad and heartbreaking, was inevitable and perhaps even necessary if Kirika is to move on and find her true self.

It is this where I find that if one wishes for Kirika to have ended up with Chloe, although only a minority that do, it is the same as wishing for Kirika a life of darkness and hate. Kirika would never be able to discover herself, to see her potential come to light, not as a killer but as a human being. Early on, Mireille may not have been the most compassionate person to Kirika, but somehow Kirika has been able to uncover so much of her own humanity by being with Mireille. The letter attests to that. And with Mireille’s now opened eyes and heart to Kirika, and each supporting the other physically and emotionally, as they walk away from the manor to start a new life together to seek the light, it could only get better for Kirika from then on. This is why it puzzles me as to why people would want a different fate for Kirika, assuming you wish the best for her, which I believe most do.

Well, if you’re still reading this at this point, congratulations. This is a longer write-up than I had initially planned. But this is what happens when I see something that I enjoy and continue to think about long after I finish watching. It’s a terrific series and I might start looking for more Anime to watch because of it, although I’m not sure if I’ll be able to find anything that’ll top Noir.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:38 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Wow!
It's nice to have such a vocal new member. I agree with much of what you say. Some comments:

I agree with your point that whether or not M&K are lesbians is almost irrelevant to their relationship. I don't think they are averse to it though ^_^

Mireille and her uncle, I agree we were probably supposed to wonder about it. I can just imagine them "playing doctor" as kids Twisted Evil but I doubt anything serious actually happened...

I understand your reasons why you would prefer to believe there was no sex during the series. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I would also have preferred Mireille was not so obviously using Kirika as a mere tool to assist her dirty work in some of the early episode, but that doesn't change the fact that it indeed happened. I can imagine quite easily how Mireille might have just used Kirika to get sexual gratification at that point. But no matter how bad they started off, I think they can grow beyond all that.

I'm a huge Chloe fan. I think it was Altena's plan to have a Chloe/Kirika pairing. That doesn't mean I think it would have been preferable if the ritual had continued according to Altena's plan.

I disagree with you that Chloe was beyond saving. I can see how it may be attractive to believe that Chloe's fate was inevitable. But I think that is grossly unfair. Mireille and Kirika had more than a year together to sort out their issues. Chloe simply never got that chance. We have no way of knowing what magnificent character development and bonding Kirika and Chloe could have achieved, if they had been living together for a year. I disagree that Chloe started out much worse than Mireille when she met Kirika, and that she was beyond redemption. I think Chloe was not wrong when she said "it should have been me living with you in Paris".

I don't believe Chloe was in love with "dark" Kirika, to me it is obvious from the time they are together at the Manor, that that is not the Kirika Chloe would prefer to be with. If Chloe tried to emulate the Kirika she admired, we should assume that she wanted to be with a Kirika who was like her.

I don't think Chloe's admiration for Kirika started from seeing her "slaughter down a family". I think at that point in their training, that would have been a non-issue already. It is my belief that what impressed Chloe so much, was that Kirika listened to Odette's last request and accepted to fulfill it. Episode 12 shows us I think the kind of ideal Chloe is trying to follow.

I don't really want a different fate for Kirika (besides of course the obvious wish that none of that shit ever happened) but I really wished Chloe would have gotten the same chance as the others. I think it would be better for Kirika also, if everyone could have been saved. It can be really depressing to know that your little bit of more humanity comes at the price of others' lives...
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:31 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Very good essay. I also agree with the most things. But to some I also have additional remarks.

Maybe that from Mireille to her uncle are romantic feelings. For sure he means much for her. He was the one who made her laugh, made her happy after that traumatic experience of her killed family. He is at least something like a father or big brother for her. But I'm also considering the possibility that her romantic feelings for her uncle are a projection of her surpressed love to Kirika to a trusted person.
noirci wrote:
If there is to be physical intimacy between them, it would be after they’ve returned from the manor, preferably after they’ve revealed in spoken word to each other of their feelings, and of course, after Kirika heals up enough to get her flexibility back.

I agree with you that there is no sex between them before the ending. But after that, no words between them are needed after what had happened inside the lava dome. And Kirika doesn't need her flexiblity back. They must not do acrobatics to get satisfaction. Gentle touching can do it also.

Regarding Chloe I have to aside FacelessMinion a little bit. If together with Kirika in Paris, she would have developed much. Even the pairing dark Kirika/Chloe wouldn't be that bad for Kirika. Chloe for sure would never let her down, and in the dark state Kirika wouldn't feel any longer that pain and sadness. And for sure Chloe could have been redeemed until that point she attacks Mireille the second time. If she had listened to Kirika. who knows...
FacelessMinion wrote:
I'm a huge Chloe fan. I think it was Altena's plan to have a Chloe/Kirika pairing. That doesn't mean I think it would have been preferable if the ritual had continued according to Altena's plan.

I don't think Altena had planed any pairing, but if so, then the Mirelle/Kirika pairing because she brings them together and lets Chloe contact them after they have proofen a strong bond between them for several times. And the final guidance. If Altena had planned Chloe/Kirika pairing, why she gives Chloe strict order only to tell Mirelle the truth about Kirika instead to let kill her like Chloe obviously wanted? The only thing I can see is that Kirika is Altenas prefered sapling and that she really loves her like she is her own child. I think she really wants to have the survivors of the trials as Noir, to have Noir as strong as possible. So we have 4 possibilites for Noir. The fourth possibility is really surprising, especially 'cause I'm thinking it's Altenas preferred - a Noir triple. Noir are two maiden, bond by a black thread. The two maiden are C & M, the black thread is K with the Corsican hit. The pairings K & M and K & C are obvious, and also a pairing M & C is possible during battle of the maiden - if both feel betrayed from Kirika.
And there is still a fiths possibility. We see Altena trying to create it in the lava dome with sacrifying Mireille - Kirika with her two sides of personality as one women Noir.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:52 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
If Altena had planned Chloe/Kirika pairing, why she gives Chloe strict order only to tell Mirelle the truth about Kirika instead to let kill her like Chloe obviously wanted?

You think Chloe obviously wanted to kill Mireille at the final guidance? I never had that impression, I thought she wanted to leave Mireille out of the matter completely, just let her know that Kirika was to become Noir but not tell her who killed her family or that she was also a sapling.
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:01 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
You think Chloe obviously wanted to kill Mireille at the final guidance?

Considering this dialog and Chloes look - yes. I think she wanted to get rid of a possible competitor for Noir. For me it seems like Altena also thinks that Chloe wants to kill Mireille

Chloe: But, what about her friend?
Altena: You should know it as well.
Altena: The Corsican girl also has the right.
Chloe: But..
Altena: Don't worry about it.
Altena: Just as you believe, that you and that child
Altena: are special.
Altena: For that child's friend, just letter her know
Altena: will be good enough.
Altena: Just the truth.
Chloe: Yes!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:23 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FallenAngel wrote:
Considering this dialog and Chloes look - yes. I think she wanted to get rid of a possible competitor for Noir. For me it seems like Altena also thinks that Chloe wants to kill Mireille

I know what they said, I just don't see any indication for murderous intentions. I don't believe Chloe saw Mireille as a possible competitor for Noir, the idea would be ridiculous to her. My interpretation of the dialogue is that Chloe wants to spare Mireille the revelation about her family, but Altena insists that Mireille has the right to know the truth. At this point Mireille doesn't even know she is a Noir candidate because Chloe hasn't told her yet, so I don't see how she could possibly be competition.
Quote:
They must not do acrobatics to get satisfaction.

Don't give me strange ideas like that Laughing
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noirci
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:37 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Woah, lots of replies to ponder about. Many excellent points.

Regarding Uncle Claude: I do NOT believe (or ever want to believe) that anything did happen between Mireille and her uncle before he left Paris 5 years ago. That would just be sick, especially since he practically raised her to adulthood since they left Corsica. He might have been a Soldat, but hopefully he wasn't also a pedophile. The situation was a bit different during that episode when they reunited, especially for Mireille since she's now a mature young woman. And once she meets again the "strict teacher" she has looked up to, I think any attraction she felt only arose when they got re-acquainted.

I really don't like the wording: "Mireille using Kirika to gain sexual gratification". How about instead, "Mireille and Kirika using each other to gain sexual gratification". Wink That is a problem I often have with Japanese animated porn: The too-common theme of non-consensual sex.

But anyways, I can't seem to see how at any point within or between the episodes, that they got horny and agreed to shag. Even in that fanfic "In Perfect Silence", the setup for it was too unbelievable: Kirika insinuating an accusation that Mireille is seeing someone else, and Mireille feeling guilty that Kirika feels jilted. If that is the case, then the sense of romantic attachment or some sort of romantic "claim" has already existed long before the final episodes. This, as I said, would cheapen the effect of what I feel they've gained at the end of the series.

Chloe could not have been saved so long as Altena still held her leash. And if it were up to Chloe, Altena will always hold that leash, and Chloe would never allow Mireille or Kirika to kill Altena. And if her and Kirika did wind up together under Altena's control, it would have been, "Oh, that's what Altena said", or "What did Altena tell you?", "Altena this... Altena that...". And if somehow Altena was out of the picture, Chloe STILL would have herself and Kirika do the things Chloe believes Altena would want them to do.

I do not see any indication at all that Chloe's happy expression as a young girl seeing Kirika was due to Kirika holding up to a promise to Odette. And afterall, how could Chloe even tell Kirika was going to keep the promise? Kirika did not save Mireille at the Bouquet's house. The whole idea of going there was to kill off the Bouquets so that Mireille will be raised by the uncle as an assassin. As far as Chloe was concerned, she watched Kirika gun down a family. That was why she was so happy, and that is why she decided for herself that she would be an assassin. The cold, efficient murderer is all that mattered to Chloe.

That is an important example of the real Kirika, and why Chloe would not have any of it. The real Kirika is one who feels despair and horrific grief after learning she is the one who killed Mireille's family. Could Chloe tolerate any of that sorrow after they become the true Noir? No, because, as the 'True Noir', Altena would probably tell them to do the same thing to another family at some point.

Quote:
...in the dark state Kirika wouldn't feel any longer that pain and sadness.


i.e. two important things she needs to feel in order to find her humanity. We have to consider what Kirika wants for herself: Right in the beginning, she griefs that she is unable to feel sadness or remorse after killing. She needs to find that part of herself that feels despair, otherwise she would be nothing more than a killing machine. Specifically, the True Noir.

I did indirectly write that I believed Mireille and Kirika was sopposed to be the True Noir in Altena's mind from the beginning. I believe Altena saw the bond they have been building, and that was the mark of the True Noir rather than pure skill, and it was the pairing that Altena expected was going to pull through ultimately. But it can also very reasonably be interpreted as that Chloe/Kirika was Plan 'A' and Kirika/Mireille was Plan 'B'. It's also quite possible. It's not exactly easy to gauge Altena's mind since it's so twisted.

And finally, I also didn't get the impression that Chloe ever considered killing Mireille until the Manor scene. I think Chloe thought of Mireille's role in Noir to be insignificant at best, and posed no threat to her destiny with Kirika as the True Noir. She considered Mireille's task was only to help Kirika through the trials until it was time for Kirika to regain her memories. Why does she believe this? Because Altena told her so, of course. And to Chloe, Altena is always right. Even after Kirika returns to the manor, Chloe still suggests that the three still get together for tea. It was only after she saw Kirika attack Mireille that she decided to kill Mireille.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:23 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
noirci wrote:
That would just be sick, especially since he practically raised her to adulthood since they left Corsica. He might have been a Soldat, but hopefully he wasn't also a pedophile.

When they leave Corsica in the flashback, Claude looks like he's 14-15 years old at most... I don't think their age difference was such that he should be called a pedophile for being attracted to his niece at some point. But I don't think it actually happened.
Quote:
I really don't like the wording: "Mireille using Kirika to gain sexual gratification". How about instead, "Mireille and Kirika using each other to gain sexual gratification".

It's not a matter of liking. In the early episodes, Mireille demonstrated she couldn't care less about Kirika's feelings. They were not at all romantic with each other at that point. If anything sexual happened at that time, I think it is more likely that Mireille initiated it and Kirika didn't dare refuse, in the same way as Mireille gets Kirika to go along killing people although doing so makes Kirika cry.
Quote:
Chloe could not have been saved so long as Altena still held her leash. And if it were up to Chloe, Altena will always hold that leash

I respectfully decline to share your opinion about Chloe and her relation to Altena. But I think I would be repeating myself if I explained my reasons again, you've probably read them already elsewhere on the forum.
Quote:
I do not see any indication at all that Chloe's happy expression as a young girl seeing Kirika was due to Kirika holding up to a promise to Odette. And afterall, how could Chloe even tell Kirika was going to keep the promise?

Would you trust the care of your children to your murderer? Apparently Kirika convinced Odette, why wouldn't Chloe be convinced?
Quote:
The cold, efficient murderer is all that mattered to Chloe.

If that were true, Chloe would try to be only a cold efficient murderer also. This is not the case.
Quote:
No, because, as the 'True Noir', Altena would probably tell them to do the same thing to another family at some point.

And this is different from Mireille making Kirika kill Rosaly's daddy on her birthday in what way? Which really did happen, rather than being only wild speculation (we have no idea what Altena planned with Noir, but I'm convinced Grand Retour was NOT about getting a pair of pet assassins)...

Last edited by FacelessMinion on Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kamui
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:46 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
I know what they said, I just don't see any indication for murderous intentions. I don't believe Chloe saw Mireille as a possible competitor for Noir, the idea would be ridiculous to her.


I think Chloe definitly saw Mireille as a possible competitor - not for Noir, but for Kirika's friendship. So - yes, she wanted to kill her to the begin with - there are many elements in the series which proves it - included the example given above.
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FacelessMinion
Light and Water for the Trees


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:09 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Kamui wrote:
So - yes, she wanted to kill her to the begin with - there are many elements in the series which proves it - included the example given above.

The example above proves nothing. Is this something different in the German version?
Please give your other examples of proof that Chloe wants Mireille dead. And explain why Chloe saves Mireille's life in every other episode if that is the case...
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:09 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
noirci wrote:
I do not see any indication at all that Chloe's happy expression as a young girl seeing Kirika was due to Kirika holding up to a promise to Odette. And afterall, how could Chloe even tell Kirika was going to keep the promise? Kirika did not save Mireille at the Bouquet's house.

I should perhaps clarify my theory a little more. Kirika did not save Mireille at the Bouquet house, but that was also not the nature of Odette's request. The indication I see that Chloe thought Kirika was going to keep the promise, is that this is what Chloe does. Chloe see, Chloe do, as it were Smile Episode 12 shows this; Chloe hears her target's confession and last wishes, and goes through considerable effort to tie up his loose ends (a little walk from Switzerland to East Germany while she must have really wanted to get back to Altena asap). She didn't just crash in and kill everyone, like she should do if she admires this in Kirika.

Chloe also isn't as mindless as you make her appear, particularly when Kirika's wellfare is concerned, for example in the Taiwan episode she goes to help Kirika and Mireille on her own initiative, and presumably against Altena's wishes.
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:41 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
The example above proves nothing. Is this something different in the German version?

The german version shows a little bit stronger that Mireille is competition for Noir. Altena says:" The young women from Corsica is also qualified." And Chloes "but.." and Altenas imperativly "only the truth" imply for me that Chloe wants to get rid of Mireille and Altena feels this.

Scenes where you can see that Chloe wants to get rid of Mireille? Of course ep. 10, holding knife at Mireilles throat. But she can't do it, because Kirika would kill her if she does. Possibly she hoped, Kirika would remember and let her do.

Another thing you can't see in English version, and I don't know if in Japanese. In Heartless Assassin II Chloe tells Kirika "I'm here to save you". This can mean Kirika or both. In German she says: "Ich bin hier um dich zu retten". This means only Kirika, otherwise she had to say "Ich bin hier um euch zu retten". She don't care for Mirelles life. But in this episode Chloe has to learn how much Mireille means to Kirika. And so she decides also to help Mireille from this point. But we can also see, that Chloe tries to part Kirika and Mirelle with words.

And I'm also thinking that Chloes desire to become Noir is stronger than her obsession to Kirika. Or better, it is the reason for her obsession to Kirika. In ep. 24, in her room, Chloe tells Kirika that she was at the Corsican hit like a true Noir and and therefore herself also wanted to become a true Noir. And later at the bath Chloe wished to repeat the teaparty after the Noir ceremony, together with Mireille. After ceremony Mirelle is no longer competition. And another thing, that her wish to become Noir is stronger than her obsession to Kirika I see at the saplings fight. As Mireille arrived Chloe is surprised about her bravery, to appear at the manor. So she don't interfere the fight between K & M, she wants to see who is stronger, to team up with the winner. But the fight ends remis, so she decides of course for Kirika.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:00 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
And explain why Chloe saves Mireille's life in every other episode if that is the case...


Because it would break Kirika's heart if Mireille died, and Chloe knows that. She tells Mireille as much...I think it was in the Cold-Blooded Assassin, Acte II.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:01 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Bulmafox wrote:
Because it would break Kirika's heart if Mireille died, and Chloe knows that. She tells Mireille as much...I think it was in the Cold-Blooded Assassin, Acte II.

She either wants to kill Mireille or she doesn't. If she didn't kill Mireille earlier to spare Kirika's feelings, there is no reason Altena would need to order her down in episode 20. There were various occasions she could kill Mireille or allow her to be killed without anybody knowing she was involved. If Chloe really wanted to kill Mireille, Mireille would be dead, I think.

In episode 10 I think Chloe was testing Kirika's reaction. She was also blocking Mireille's move to shoot her in the back, which I'm pretty sure Mireille would have tried without the knife at her throat.

In Taiwan she said she came to help "anata", so probably just Kirika (Japanese is vague like that). But she did kill the guy with the scar just as he was about to kill Mireille.

I think Chloe was sincere when she said she wanted to be Mireille's friend, for Kirika's sake.

Perhaps she tries to part them with words, but that is not the same as killing Mireille...

Quote:
And I'm also thinking that Chloes desire to become Noir is stronger than her obsession to Kirika. Or better, it is the reason for her obsession to Kirika.

I'm hesitating about this, sometimes I think it's like that, sometimes I think it's the reverse. Rolling Eyes
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
FacelessMinion wrote:
In episode 10 I think Chloe was testing Kirika's reaction. She was also blocking Mireille's move to shoot her in the back, which I'm pretty sure Mireille would have tried without the knife at her throat.

Testing Kirikas reaction isn't that far away from trying to bring back Kirikas memories. But for Mireille I think different. She is so much shocked about hearing Chloe say "I'm the true Noir" that she behaves like an absolute beginner. She doesn't follow Chloe with her gun as she starts walking out. And she lets get Chloe behind her back. After Chloe stops in her back, she tries to turn around. That's the moment when Chloe pulls the knife. If Chloe simply walked away, I think nothing would happened. If she wanted to kill Chloe, she had better chances before.

Quote:
I think Chloe was sincere when she said she wanted to be Mireille's friend, for Kirika's sake.

No need to doubt it. Maybe I haven't expressed it clear enough. I believe Chloe is struggling on the question to get rid of Mirelle or to get her friend because of Kirika. I think good to see is this in ep. 18, Chloe telling Kirika " I was thinking of leaving the matter alone. This is no more than the usual trials one must face. But.. it's your friend.."

In ep. 20 we have a special situation. Chloe should do final guidance, which for sure would part Mirelle and Kirka and bring Kirka to the manor as true Noir. So no need to care any longer. And there is still the possiblity that Mireille kills Kirika after truth reveals. So killing Mireille would bring Chloe much closer to her objective to become Noir, since she doesn't consider Mireille as true Noir at this point. But she knows Mireille is qualified - so if Mireille shots Kirika, automaticly Mireille would get Noir.
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FacelessMinion
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:47 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Sprite Revenchatte wrote:

Naked. Drooling. Animal. Kirika. XD

....wow, mental image much?

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Quote:
I think Kirika's sheer spirit would enable her to lift a greataxe.

Also, such axes would not be all that heavy, these were for cutting, not chopping, the blades would be wide but relatively thin for slicing through flesh, there is no need for "splitting" power like on a woodcutter's axe. Also Kirika would be accustomed to their weight. And perceptions change in battle. Like Musashi wrote: "A helmet is normally considered very heavy, but when you're scaling a castle wall, with rocks, arrows, and bullets flying your way, your helmet will not feel heavy enough by far" or words to that effect...
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Excerpts from the Life of Madame Trousseau
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
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Location: Canada?
	
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:48 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Anyone here a frothing mad tea/coffee enthusiast? I want to double-check the accuracy of my frothing mad tea/coffee enthusiast's dialogue (although I think its pretty good, considering I've never touched either beverage).

And would a garrote leave a big bruise or more of a thin red line?

Update: currently on Chapter 8 or 10 out of 17 and clipping along. I'm tempted to put Chapter 10 up here (since it explains the trowel), but I won't. Ha!
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Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often.

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes?

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad?
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Section_8
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:05 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Anyone a boiling mad fan of fine china? I'm attempting to figure out where I should have a character import an extremely expensive tea-set from. Currently, I'm guessing Rotterdam, due to the wonders of the Internet.

And now, because I'm bored, a brief preview:

Chapter 10: A Chance Encounter

Monsieur Trousseau lurched his way down Rue De l’Echaude, cane tap tapping upon the cobbles as he did.

Refreshing change of pace, it was. How long had it been since he’d walked down this way? Too long, too long. Too many weeks and months of up Place du D’Allaire, left at the newsstand, cross the street to the park…time for a change. He had been too heavy and glum as of late, too worried about the apartment, about Peter, Cosette, and Marien. It was time to leave his the troubles and worries behind and to find a new path.

At least, such were his thoughts. In truth, his feet had turned right when they usually turned left, and he was so pleasantly surprised by their bout of ingenuity that he’d turned things over to them for awhile. And here he was, on a pleasantly hot summer day, with the wind in his hair (“What’s left of it,” he thought, ruefully), walking through the streets of his youth. Ah yes, those summer days…the parades, the cheering crowds, the joy of it all…hey! There was the very tree he clambered up to get a better look at the passing heroes. He gave one of its old branches an experimental tug. Strong as ever. “Hm,” he thought, “should bring Cosette by here.” And his thoughts drifted back to the fetching young blonde he’d spotted in the crowd so long ago, how he’d pulled her up to his perch, and how they’d cheered, how they’d laughed, laughed all through the day and into the night, the first quiet night Paris had seen in so very long, that night when he realized that, at last, the guns were silent, and would never sound aga --

A sharp noise made him twitch.

“Odd noise,” he thought. “Bit like a racquetball.”

Three others followed in rapid succession. Confused, he looked about for their source. Inevitably, his ears lead him downward.

The sounds were clearly coming from an old, rusted iron grate in the curb. The old sewers? Restoration work, maybe? He knelt down, bracing himself against the tree, for a better listen.

As suddenly as they began, the noises stopped.

“Huh,” he said.

Slowly, he creaked to his feet, and set off down the road at a slower, more measured pace. “The tunnels,” he thought. “Remember them. Remember the damp. The cold. The running. Back in July, too, I think. Funny. Didn’t think I was so close.” Lost in thought, he paid no heed to his feet as they led him around another street corner.

“Oof!” He stumbled as his foot caught the corner of a lamppost. He grabbed it, and leaned hard on his stick, pausing to catch his breath.

At this point, he noticed he was looking at another aged storm drain. And it, too, was making noise.

It was faint. Sounded distant. Sort of a rhythmic, scraping sound?

Again he put his ear close to the ground, heedless of the bewildered look some passing teenagers gave him.

There were voices, too, made hollow and chthonic by the echoes.

“No, not like that. Keep it smooth and level. Nice, even strokes.”

“Do we have to do this?”

“We should cover our tracks. That, and we’re running out of walls.”

Monsieur Trousseau rose to his feet, puzzled. “Running out of…?” he mouthed. He shook his head. “Probably sanitation workers,” he thought. “Monsieur Duceppe did say they went down there on occasion.” He wandered slowly down the walk, watching his cane tap the cobblestones one by one, pondering the meaning of this inexplicable phenomenon. Eventually, his feet walked him past an alley.

His ears pricked up at the distinctive sound of a manhole cover scraping against concrete. A distant, yet hauntingly familiar voice, said “There we go.”

He froze. His feet hobbled him into the alley, over the fallen boxes, around the corner --

A young woman gasped. So did he.

Before him was a young blonde haired woman apparently helping an Oriental looking girl climb out of an open manhole cover. He and they stared at each other blankly for several seconds, making an interesting tableau.

“Miss Bouquet?” said Monsieur. “Miss Yuumura?”

The former blinked a bit as the latter climbed onto solid ground. “Uhhhhhh…yes?” she said.

“What in God’s name were you doing down there?” he asked, in disbelief.

Panic claimed her. “Ah…err…uh…I…that is, we…were…um…”

“Spelunking.”

“Eh?” said Monsieur.

“Eh?” said Mireille.

“Spelunking,” repeated Kirika, in all seriousness. “You told me about the old tunnels once. I wanted to see them. She came with me,” she said, with a nod to her roommate.

At this point, Monsieur Trousseau noticed something hanging off her arm. “And you went with that?”

Kirika looked at the bucket of spackle looped over her arm. A recently used trowel was sticking out of it. “Um…” she explained.

“Well, she mentioned them,” said Mireille, jumping in, “and I remembered reports on how they were falling apart, and she thought we might fix some of the dents in the wall or something, so…”

He considered this, then chuckled. “You two are something else,” he said, shaking his head.

“Yeah,” she said, with a nervous laugh.

“Ah, but you shouldn’t be slinking around in the dark on a day like this!” he cried. “Go to the park! Visit the birds by the lake! Plenty of water and light, that’s what’s right for young sprouts like you!”

“‘Water and light,’” said Kirika, looking a bit zoned out.

“You know, that’s a great idea,” said Mireille. “Let’s go do that, Kirika?”

“Eh?” she said.

“Let’s go,” she replied, looking a little tense. “Uh, enjoy your walk, Monsieur Trousseau.”

“Pretty entertaining so far,” he replied, as they scurried a little too quickly around the corner. “Strange people,” he thought, as he turned to leave. “But we all have our secrets, I suppose.”

His feet slowed after a few paces, and then stopped. He looked back over his shoulder, thoughtfully.

The open manhole yawned at him.

[PS: Mwah ha ha ha ha!]
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often.

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes?

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad?
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FacelessMinion
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Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:29 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Quote:
Anyone a boiling mad fan of fine china? I'm attempting to figure out where I should have a character import an extremely expensive tea-set from. Currently, I'm guessing Rotterdam, due to the wonders of the Internet.

Shouldn't china be from China? For european porcelain, Delft perhaps, if the famous blue-and-white is to your taste.
You can probably spend as much as you want on Japanese tea ustensils, if the made-by-4-year-old-playing-in-the-mud-look is to your taste...

For the bruise, I wouldn't know... do people still develop bruises when they are dead?
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:33 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Thanka you verra much. I wanted an European-style tea set, and didn't know where to look.

The garrotte thing was for a sight-gag/practical story element, actually. Simply put, K&M get beat up a lot, yet always look like supermodels the next episode (well, except for K, but that's due to wardrobe more than anything). Conclusion: makeup!
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often.

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes?

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad?
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FallenAngel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:05 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
You can also import china from Meissen, Germany. It was the first european porcelain, and it's quite expensive, since it is all handmade (consider german wages) with a special art of coloring it. If they make a mistake, they have no chance to correct it. They must throw away the whole piece.
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
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Location: Canada?
	
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:08 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
It's almost done! Woo!

Questions to those with military service:

1. What do the Parisian SWAT teams carry?
2. Could the firearms mentioned in (1) punch through an apartment wall?
3. Could the rounds used in the FAMAS do it? If it's made of really old brick? Or would it have to be wood and insulation?
4. Do any of the previously mentioned arms make a distinctive sound?

(Actually, this is more of a nit-pick than anything; I might just give the guys fin-stabilized-armour-piercing-discarding-sabot-depleted-uranium-explosive-acid-poison-laser-tipped rounds or something.)

Oh, am also looking for a really disgusting dinner dish a family in France might serve on a semi-regular basis. It should either be gooey or go drizzle and plop off a spoon in a stomach-churning fashion.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often.

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes?

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad?
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Canada?
	
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:50 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Well, holy bloop. This 100-page monstrosity might actually get finished before the humourous (and infinitely easier to write) Noir: Contracts.

By the way, I think the next thing I write may involve Chloe going to a 7-11 for a quart of milk.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often.

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes?

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad?
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
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Location: Canada?
	
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:59 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
It's done! W00!

Editing shall be complete tonight: posting will commence thereafter.

Special thanks to everyone on this board for helpful tips and tricks.

Here's hoping someone out there enjoys it.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2026914/1/
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often.

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes?

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad?
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FacelessMinion
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Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:34 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Section_8 wrote:

1. What do the Parisian SWAT teams carry?

I know it's too late, but, according to Raids nr 148, december 1998, the GIPN of Lyon's equipment consists of:
bulletproof helmet, gas mask Avon, anti-noise helmet, tonfa, bulletproof vest PN4 or discrete model SEMA, handcuffs, cordura hip holster, intervention suit, ski mask, polar jacket and coat, intervention shoes, Surfire flashlight, portable radio New Eagle, intervention knife, bandages, backpack, bag, safety glasses.

The unit (24 men) also carries light and heavy shields, climbing equipment, listening devices, communications, portable, Nikon F301 camera, binoculars 8*56, wire and boltcutters, an axe, a hammer, several sizes of battering rams, 3 "tourism" vehicules, 2 monospace vehicules and a forgon J5 turbodiesel.

Armament of the unit consists of 24 4 inch MR-73 revolvers, 3 s&w 2 inch revolvers, 24 beretta 92fs, 9 steyr-mannlicher carabines, 3 sig 551, 7 HK mp5 a5, 6 benelli shotguns, 4 flash-balls. Also various grenades and a tear gas dispenser. Some pgm ultima ratio sniper rifles.

Why is everybody looking at me like that?

Last edited by FacelessMinion on Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Section_8
Nun Fighter


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Location: Canada?
	
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:50 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
Meh. Went with FAMASs instead.

Oh, and an official annotation:

If you don't believe a round from the FAMAS would punch through the walls like that, I propose that

a> If Kirika can punch through a stone wall with a 9mm, these guys can do it with 5.56 firing full-auto
b> Old house. Maybe cheap insulation and rotting bricks?
c> Armor-piercing-fin-stabilized-discarding-sabot-depleted-uranium-explosive-tip-rocket-propelled rounds.
_________________
Wow, 3 A.M. does wonders for my creativity. I should do this more often.

Believe it or not, I was not, in fact, on any drugs at all when I wrote this. Much this explains, yes?

Wait; if "sleep is good" then is no sleep me bad?
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