Author Topic: "If one can kill for love...  (Read 2317 times)

FallenAngel

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"If one can kill for love...
« on: August 30, 2006, 05:07:58 AM »
...then hatred can save." I don't want to discuss the sense or nonsense of this slogan. What I want is to take a look how it applies to the way the saplings were raised. And despite being raised under different conditions, I think it was meant the same for all three. So let's take a look:

Kirika:
Sometimes there are ideas that Kirika was forced somehow to kill. Either with cruelty or with blackmail or similar things. We have no hints for this. But we have hints for the opposite. As Kirika returns to the manor, there is no difference how Artena treats her and Chloe. Even in the memories, as Artena hands Kirika the Beretta, Artena looks very kind. And would Chloe love Artena that much if she had treated Kirika bad? On the other hand, we can see that a normal Kirika has heavy issues with killing. And a normal Kirika doesn't seem to love Artena that much. So what's her motivation? If you take a closer look at her behaviour, it becomes obvious: She desperately wants to be loved, and she is willing to do anything she thinks that is necessary to be loved, no matter what it means to her. It seems to be necessary to kill to get Artenas love. But since she isn't able to kill, she's in a conflict, which is resolved by the appearance of Dark Kirika. So she doesn't kill because she loves Artena, she kills because she wants to be loved from Artena. While seeing from the outside, you can't tell the difference, but it is important regarding Artenas plans.

Now the hatred part. I think it was planned to grow hatred inside her during the trials. That's the reason why her memories were erased. That way she's free from Soldats indoctrination. On her quest for her past she should find out the truth about the Soldats and start to hate them. The information about Mireille was left (implanted?), so that she had a piece of the puzzle to begin with. Here again interferes Kirikas strive for love with Artenas plans. Instead using that knowledge about Mireille to start a quest on her own, she contacts Mireille instead, so that she has one that she possibly can make love her if she behaves like (she thinks) it is expected from her. That's how she behaves all the times toward Mireille. And what interferes with Artenas plans either - it seems like Kirika isn't able to hate at all.

Mireille:
While the Corsican hit makes it look like Mireille is meant to kill out of hatred, it isn't. The main objective of the Corsican hit is to make Mireille a Noir against the will of her parents. While it, as side effect, is a good seed for hatred, it shouldn't be the reason why she starts with killing. She should kill out of love either. That's the reason why she isn't taken to the Manor, but raised and trained by her uncle. A person who loves her and who she loves. But it fails, the seed of hatred blossoms too early. Mireille starts to kill out of hatred, and not out of love. That's why Artena decides to make her not longer a candidate for Noir. Kirika, with her strive for love, brings her back into the game.

Chloe:
That she kills out of love is indisputable. But it seems that, like Kirika, she isn't able to hate. Really? We should not forget her special situation. She has no reason to hate anybody. She's confident that Kirika and her become Noir all the time. That's all what she's living for. In moments of doubt Artena wipes away her concerns. In addition, Artenas power depends on the control of at least one of the saplings. During the trials she has no control over Kirika, and of course not over Mireille. If Artena lights the flame of hatred inside Chloe before the end of the trials, her plans will fail. I think that's the original sense of the last, the hardest trial. That Chloe is able to hate we see during her last moments. A very common way to hatred is: disappointment - rage - disillusion - hatred. Disappointment - Kirika disarms her. Rage - she attacks Kirika. Desillusion - she throws away her greatest treasure, the fork. Hatred - the moment as her eyes change and she attacks Mireille again. Unfortunately she directs her hatred against the wrong person. It's Artena who is responsible that she has to suffer, not Mireille. Otherwise she'd probably survived.

Section_8

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Re: "If one can kill for love...
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2006, 11:03:55 PM »
Wow. That actually makes perverse sense. Question: what seed blossomed in Altena: love or hate?
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Cyberia

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Re: "If one can kill for love...
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2006, 06:23:48 AM »
Well done :)

perhaps something to add:

Kirika
Yes she kills because she wants to be loved from Artena.
While Kirikas task to kill the family of Mireille, she learned unconsciously that there is another love a stronger love from Odette to Mireille. So I think that here begins the conflict to raise in Dark Kirika. She can´t imagine this kind of love perhaps.
Artena has only hate in herself and giving the last piece of love to the saplings. The tales read out by Artena before sleep point to this, also Artenas history.

It´s interesting if you look the saplings:

Kirika kills Odette
            -> Mireille could only get love from Claude.

Nearly Kirika kills Artena
       -> Chloé would try to avoid this but she would fail. If it happened ? 

Chloé try to kill Mireille
                  ->  Kirika would only get love from Artena and CHloé. But she avoid this.

.. le noir, ce mot designe depuis une epoque lointaine le nom du destin. les deux vierges regnent sur la mort. les mains noires protegent la paix des nouveaux-nes...

Ombrenuit

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Re: "If one can kill for love...
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2006, 10:36:59 AM »
I have to agree with section_8...usually these theories feel farfetched, and though amusing, seem to be going a lot deeper then perhaps the creators ever intended. But this is a case strangely does make sense, and if anything, makes the statement "If one can kill for love, hatred can truly save us," understandable in light of the story. Very curious.

Fellini 8.5

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Re: "If one can kill for love...
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2006, 08:12:35 PM »
Now that I've finally rewatched Noir this year (hooray!), I seem to remember that the "official" subtitles for Altena's catchphrase are "If love can kill, surely hatred can save".

That kind of spins it a little bit differently.  But only just a little.  My take is that Altena thinks that hatred is thread that binds Noir's mission, I think.  That hatred can be a pure purposes just as much as love is purported to be.

And Altena wants Kirika and Mireille to hate her.  To make that the bond that forms Noir, and to then focus that hatred against the Soldats in power so they're driven to wipe them from the face of the Earth and fulfill Le Grande Retour.

Mireille is meant to hate Altena because of her machinations that made Kirika kill her parent.  Kirika is meant to hate Altena because she was forced to kill Chloe in order to save Mireille.  Chloe is meant to hate Mireille out of jealousy, which ultimately forces Kirika's hand.

Altena's plan backfires, though.  Mireille has contempt for Altena, but doesn't hate her anymore.  She's "not worth wasting a bullet on".  Kirika hates herself, though; enough to end it all and save Mireille out of one last act of love for her.  But that's because she misunderstands Odette's final words that "hatred can never save", not even yourself.  Mireille steps in and actually saves her, with love, and demonstrates the real thing.  And how can Kirika not accept that?  :)

I don't know if Kirika is ever actually looking for love, because I think she was caught up in hating herself.  Ultimately symbolized in "Dark" Kirika.  Mireille, as I mentioned, overcame her hate at the end.  Chloe never really hated at all, until faced with the truth in the Coloseum.

Anyway, just rambling.  I'm sure the next time I watch it, I'll take away a different conclusion.  :)



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FallenAngel

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Re: "If one can kill for love...
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2006, 06:31:26 AM »
I disagree regarding Kirika's and Chloe's motivations for hatred.

Kirika should hate Artena and the Soldat because they're responsible that she suffers that much.
Chloe should hate Artena and the Soldat because they're the reason why Kirika feels that much pain. It becomes obvious during "Return to Darkness". The saplings are never meant to hate each other, despite there are reasons for any of the saplings to hate any other. I think it's part of the trials to find out who will overcome the reason for hatred and who not.

And I don't believe that hatred against Soldat should be the bond between Noir. While it is the motivation for the fight against Soldat, it would form a very week bond. For sure it was always meant to be love.

And Kirika's search for love. Imagine her situation. Given away from her parents at a young age. Often this causes 2 reactions:
- My parents don't love me anymore.
- It must have been my fault. I didn't fullfill their expectations, so next time I'll do whatever is expected from me.
In addition, while desperately doing anything to be loved, they often try to keep some emotional distance, so that it is less pain if they're parted again. Think about 2 things that are said during "Depths of Hellfire": Kirika after killing Chloe: "Chloe was my other me". Chloe as Artena embraces her and Kirika: "I'm really happy because I was loved by you." Take this as Kirika's emotions either.

I know what I'm talking about. I went to a comparable situation, and it had a deep impact to my life. If you know me know, you would describe me as introverted, shy and partly devotional. I wasn't always like this. As child I was extroverted, sociable (my parents always feared that a stranger could take me easily with him) and always the leader of the pack. I had always a lot of friends around me. Always being the leader of the pack was my fate. During school a classmate started to compete with me for this position in our class. We both got that obsessed from our competition that we finally lost all our friends. That was a really scaring experience for me. I never wanted to have that feeling again, so I was (or better I'm still) willing to do nearly anything that is necessary that I don't loose friends again. It may sound weird, but the first friend that I got after that was my former competitor. With time some of our old friends returned. But the relationship was never the same again.

origami

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Re: "If one can kill for love...
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2006, 05:09:18 PM »
Well, this is interesting, so I'll write too much and bore everybody.

To be honest, I don’t like to extrapolate too much about Kirika’s past just as I don’t feel completely comfortable attesting to Altena’s, or even Chole’s, motivations.    Some things are, of course, assumable:  Kirika was shown/taught at a young age that murder, for her anyway, was normal, if not just okay.  How much of her acquiescence came from a desire to please isn’t confirmable, even if likely, and I’m hesitant to ascribe the chibi Kirika with the wherewithal to consciously be seeking love, though I think that on an unconscious level it’s quite probable.   As for hatred?  Like the fat Italian, I think her hatred is really for herself; otherwise, she’d have little reason for disassociating so completely parts of herself.  Perhaps this is the hatred that saves Kirika:  it saves her from herself?  Nah, that doesn’t seem right, either.

While the structure of Noir is the basic hero’s journey (Kirika’s search for her lost self), I think much of Noir can be viewed as a traditional Western revenge plot:  at least for Mireille, the cause is not simply the search for a truth but for the possibility of enacting vengeance for her family’s murder.  The revenge plot is very similar to the hero’s journey (in fact, here it parallels it), except that the quest is not to gain anything, but to force someone else to lose.  It stems from a belief, for the wronged party, that violence can provide restitution, that destruction can offer retribution, that vengeance can lead to salvation; in short, that hatred can save.

I think perhaps, in the larger picture, you could assume that Altena’s ideal of hatred saving, in the context of the Grand Retour, is itself a massive scale revenge plot.  We see enough of her childhood to know it wasn’t pleasant, and if her wish is to revive a Noir to protect the peace of the newly-born as she herself wasn’t (I do think this is her main motive) then, with her past experience in the forefront of her thoughts, it’s also possible that part of her motivation is to revive a Noir to seek vengeance on a dark and corrupt world for its evils: evils that include those perpetuated upon her.  Who else to blame for this evil than the Soldats, who are the world, themselves.  Altena admits as much toward the end of the series.  So the character who espouses the “hatred can save” philosophy is herself constructing her own revenge plot.  Her hatred, through the Grand Retour, may “save” the Soldats of old, and conversely, the world itself.  Now, whether this thinking means that Altena prefers the vengeful Mireille as a part of her Noir is pretty debatable:  given Japanese preferences for open- ended storytelling, I think you can make the case either way convincingly.   Of course, Altena is such a whack job that attempting to reconstruct her motivations is a pretty slippery slope anyway.    :D

As for poor Chloe, so much of her philosophy parrots Altena it’s hard to say just what her motivations are.  Did she have love?  Of course.  Did it kill her?  You could say that if you wished; either her love for Kirika or, with a certain interpretation, her love for Altena led to her demise.  One thing is for certain:  hatred did not save her, and if anything, her attempted revenge certainly had her killed.

But then, as the series tries to communicate, hatred never saves.  Odette offers Kirika the morsel that brings her out of her indecision:  “Love can sometimes kill, but hatred can never, ever, save.”  Once Kirika remembers that declaration, her choices are pretty much set, her rejection of Noir, of the vengeance plan, is the path her journey is now set on.  But she is not the character that embodies this rejection the best.

Which of the four characters represents this idea the best?  Ironically, it’s the vengeance driven, hate mongering one with a righteous mission: Odette’s daughter.  Why?  Because she is the only one, after all, who ever actually forgives.    She forgives Kirika, and that forgiveness for her family’s destruction is not only remarkable, it is the clearest example of someone being saved.  If anyone is saved, it’s Kirika, from Mireille’s bullet, from her dark self, and from a fiery pit.  Each time, she is saved by love. 

Of course, you can make the argument that Mireille is saved by Kirika’s love, many times, through out the series, but Mireille’s salvation through love is less remarkable to me than her rejection of hate.  Her seemingly sole motivation throughout the series has been acting in anger, single-mindedly searching for vengeance, taking it where she can find it (the Soldat in the church in ep 5 comes to mind).  That’s what makes her refusal to shoot Altena so remarkable in the end.  She, without being told, embraces the beliefs of her mother: she understands that hatred, revenge, will not be the thing that saves her in the end. 

One could also argue that when Mireille finally completely abandons her revenge plot, she shows Kirika the way to come to the end of her journey and find the self that she’s been seeking.  I don’t think it is a coincidence that when Kirika mimics Mireille's example, and also refuses to shoot Altena, she is able to name herself, and take on her sins as Kirika, and not Noir.  But I think I’ve rambled enough on the subject for now.

Good call, Fellini.
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nae

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Re: "If one can kill for love...
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2006, 08:59:45 AM »
Beautifully said, origami. I particularly like the idea of Noir as a revenge plot. I guess that's what it is, at its heart. I've never consciously articulated it like so before, but this chimes very true.

So, if Altena was planning a revenge plot of her own, can we say that she, too, is saved by love when they refuse to shoot her, I wonder? Instead of gunning Altena down in a blaze of hatred, Kirika desires to sacrifice both their lives in what I think is a neutral act of closure (their lives were a mistake, therefore they should die) rather than outright vengeance.

Maybe I'm answering my own question here, because there isn't a strict polarity between hate and love -- there's also an in-between state which I personally find very satisfying at the end. We probably all have differing interpretations of everyone's motivations, though.

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Re: "If one can kill for love...
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2021, 11:19:51 AM »
I know the last post was 15 years but after thinking about Altena's quote and philosophy in a rewatch, I remembered something. That one word and philosophical idea "Ressentiment". What is interesting for me is Ressentiment usually directed against a group like the "rich and powerful" and Noir does that to some degree. But what I find interesting is Altena is plotting revenge and finding Ressentiment something more abstract such as human nature/sin. How it seems to manifest itself in Altena is the hatred of wickedness will save humanity but it's manifestation is killing people which is an act of love. Maybe the idea has been talked about before, but it's been awhile. Anyway interesting to hear people's thoughts.

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